OblivionFall Posted November 23, 2015 Posted November 23, 2015 (edited) Hey so I was watching this video that shows how to make fast burning black powder without a ball mill https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-fKSvMraLo media costs me $50 US so if someone could explain how it is possible that he can make such fast BP without ball milling it that would be great. He is using balsa wood by the way. Also if anyone can find me a place that sells milling media for cheap that would be appreciated. Edited November 23, 2015 by OblivionFall
MrB Posted November 23, 2015 Posted November 23, 2015 It's called the CIA method, and relies on using alcohol of some kind (acetone supposedly works to?) to near instantly drop the temperature, and "lock" KNO3 that was dissolved in the water inside the charcoal. At least thats my (very) basic understanding of it. The liquid that gets discarded still contains a lot of KNO3, so it's quite wasteful...B!
DaMounty Posted November 23, 2015 Posted November 23, 2015 Cheapest place I found lead milling media was at the local gun shop. DaM
Ubehage Posted November 23, 2015 Posted November 23, 2015 (edited) Hey so I was watching this video that shows how to make fast burning black powder without a ball mill media costs me $50 US so if someone could explain how it is possible that he can make such fast BP without ball milling it that would be great. He is using balsa wood by the way. Also if anyone can find me a place that sells milling media for cheap that would be appreciated.It's not that good BP. Trust me, I started with this method Blade-milled and screened BP will be hotter, if you kneat it thoroughly while wetting. Edited November 23, 2015 by Ubehage
Col Posted November 23, 2015 Posted November 23, 2015 more expensive and labour intensive than milling, 2.5L of meths per kilo of bp
Mumbles Posted November 23, 2015 Posted November 23, 2015 I'm going to move this to a more suitable location. That video in no way resembles a reputable source of information. Most of the "instructional" videos on youtube are poor quality, and this one is no exception. 5
braddsn Posted November 24, 2015 Posted November 24, 2015 If there is a way to make fast bp without a mill (of some kind), I sure don't know it, and have never ran across it in all of my reading. If you are going to do pyro long-term, a ball mill is a must in my opinion.
Merlin Posted November 24, 2015 Posted November 24, 2015 I thought of this after nitrating charcoal for the baggie method of star cutting. Dave who has done extensive research on BP methods assures me ball milling produces the best BP. I had not even considered the CIA method so didn't know it was the same thing. By the way a quantitative test is the only way to determine BP speed.
OblivionFall Posted November 25, 2015 Author Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) If there is a way to make fast bp without a mill (of some kind), I sure don't know it, and have never ran across it in all of my reading. If you are going to do pyro long-term, a ball mill is a must in my opinion. Ok yeah I have had a lortone rock tumbler for the past year I just couldn't find suitable media for less than $60 and not to mention KNO3 is $14 canadian per pound That's why the only things I've really made is report ring ground shells with granulated green mix and nitrate flash for burst. But hopefully I can make good bp and stars and put my 600ish mesh atomized mgal to some use. (Pretty much a report ring shell on the ground.) Edited November 25, 2015 by OblivionFall
Ubehage Posted November 25, 2015 Posted November 25, 2015 Ok yeah I have had a lortone rock tumbler for the past year I just couldn't find suitable media for less than $60 and not to mention KNO3 is $14 canadian per pound That's why the only things I've really made is report ring ground shells with granulated green mix and nitrate flash for burst. But hopefully I can make good bp and stars and put my 600ish mesh atomized mgal to some use. (Pretty much a report ring shell on the ground.)If you can find just about any kind of milling media that won't degrade/contaminate the chemicals, then I've had good results with milling the KNO3 alone and mix the BP through a 120# sieve.
Merlin Posted November 25, 2015 Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) I have two Lortone tumblers. One is a double 3 lb which I found to be useless except for milling small amounts of chemicals. The second is a single twelve lb tumbler that will mill 20 Oz BP per run but because of the rotation speed properly charged it takes at least 12 hours. Finally bit the dust and got a MJR? tumbler 40 lb with the proper rotation speed of 60 rpm. It will do 3 lbs BP in 3 or 4 hours. Your right it takes a LOT of lead balls. I used to cast my own bullets so I had that plus another 10 lbs of purchased 1/2 inch balls so I run around 35 lbs of media. In the long run it is the best way to go. You can spend much less time on BP and more on other things. Calebkessinger has Mills for sale or you could go with a MJR. The modified rebels seem to be popular. The generic rock tumblers will work with very long run times due to only 20 to 30 rpm. Edited November 25, 2015 by Merlin
Merlin Posted November 25, 2015 Posted November 25, 2015 The cheapest way to get lead media is labor intensive. Get a multi cavity 50 cal round ball mould. Visit tire dealers or garages and offer to buy their discarded wheel weights and cast your own. Wheel weights have enough tin and antimony to be sufficiently hard. Drop them from the mould into a bucket of cold water.
OblivionFall Posted November 25, 2015 Author Posted November 25, 2015 Ok i gotcha. I have a 3lb lortone tumbler. Honestly i think paying the $60 to get top quality media is more worth the time than molding my own. (Considering how many hours molding might take.)
starxplor Posted November 25, 2015 Posted November 25, 2015 Ok yeah I have had a lortone rock tumbler for the past year I just couldn't find suitable media for less than $60 and not to mention KNO3 is $14 canadian per pound That's why the only things I've really made is report ring ground shells with granulated green mix and nitrate flash for burst. But hopefully I can make good bp and stars and put my 600ish mesh atomized mgal to some use. (Pretty much a report ring shell on the ground.) I have not tried this ceramic media, but the price (USD) looks to be in your range:http://www.pyrocreations.com/ball-mills---media?cmx=11955
calebkessinger Posted November 25, 2015 Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) Give me your address.. I have some out of rounds and such that would work perfect for ya. 4lbs ships in a flat rate envelope for 24 bucks I believe. I will send it for 30 bucks total. It will be ten times better than just plain lead. Good hard media can't be made up for in another way. It's the basis of everything we do. The off casts are what i use as my media. Caleb oh.. and you can get nitrate way cheaper there. You just have to find a place that will sell you a 50lb. sack. around here people would look for a home garden store or store for herb growing. Edited November 25, 2015 by calebkessinger
DaMounty Posted November 25, 2015 Posted November 25, 2015 Give me your address.. I have some out of rounds and such that would work perfect for ya. 4lbs ships in a flat rate envelope for 24 bucks I believe. I will send it for 30 bucks total. It will be ten times better than just plain lead. Good hard media can't be made up for in another way. It's the basis of everything we do. The off casts are what i use as my media. Caleb oh.. and you can get nitrate way cheaper there. You just have to find a place that will sell you a 50lb. sack. around here people would look for a home garden store or store for herb growing. How would your media hold up if it were to be used on MgAl? DaM
Merlin Posted November 25, 2015 Posted November 25, 2015 You won't need $60 for media for a 3 lb tumbler.I have tried the ceramic media. It chips. Also you can't get the manufacturer to guarantee that it cannot spark. This was my experience not to say all ceramic media is that way.
starxplor Posted November 26, 2015 Posted November 26, 2015 You won't need $60 for media for a 3 lb tumbler.I have tried the ceramic media. It chips. Also you can't get the manufacturer to guarantee that it cannot spark. This was my experience not to say all ceramic media is that way. Was it the media from pyrocreations that you tried? if not, where was it from so we can all avoid it?
Merlin Posted November 26, 2015 Posted November 26, 2015 Honestly don't recall but it was from an independent hobby supplier rather than a pyro supplier. 1
50AE Posted November 30, 2015 Posted November 30, 2015 A mortar and a pestle can serve you to make a very hot BP. Almost ball-mill like grade - if you have the hands, palms and nerves to grind. Expect 30-40 minutes of grinding for 30-40 grams of BP depending of your mortar and pestle sizes. A good question for a newbie is: "How do I know if my chemicals are fine enough ?" ; Trial and error is the answer. A good judge for particle size is the feel of the powder between your fingers. It shouldn't feel rough and grainy. If it starts to feel smooth like cream and silk, it's probably fine enough.Another indicator is the "fingerprint". Try pressing your finger into the powder. The more fine it is, the more details you will see printed on it. Normally, you should see a very detailed fingerprint.A third indicator that works only for the KNO3 and Sulfur and not for the charcoal, because it's too light - it's the clumping method. The finer the powder gets, the more easy to clump it is. If you immerse your hand in a fine KNO3 powder and squeeze a batch with your hand, it should become a "potato" with all your fingerprints and palm lines on it. 1
schroedinger Posted November 30, 2015 Posted November 30, 2015 Oblivion your rock tumbler will need 2, 5 kg of 10 mm lead media or 750 g of 10 mm ceramic media. Both shouldn't cost you more then 20 $. Only media that can cost you 60 $ is zirconia based media.But don't expect your mill to make a really good bp. If you want good bp you will need a mill that makes you at least one pound of bp in a run. If you wan't to get a real mill without much work get one of calebs rebel tumblers, get a lortone qt-12 or a kingty 2000 (don't get the small 680 it spins to fast to be of any use) or biild your own. This will also burst your runs from 100g bp in 24 hours up to 1 lb + in 3 hours.
OblivionFall Posted November 30, 2015 Author Posted November 30, 2015 Oblivion your rock tumbler will need 2, 5 kg of 10 mm lead media or 750 g of 10 mm ceramic media. Both shouldn't cost you more then 20 $. Only media that can cost you 60 $ is zirconia based media.But don't expect your mill to make a really good bp. If you want good bp you will need a mill that makes you at least one pound of bp in a run. If you wan't to get a real mill without much work get one of calebs rebel tumblers, get a lortone qt-12 or a kingty 2000 (don't get the small 680 it spins to fast to be of any use) or biild your own. This will also burst your runs from 100g bp in 24 hours up to 1 lb + in 3 hours.Honestly I am just looking to get reasonably fast burning BP. And I can't make fireworks on a big scale because of limited space and money. I just like to make shells and salutes for holidays like halloween and new year's.
Ubehage Posted November 30, 2015 Posted November 30, 2015 Honestly I am just looking to get reasonably fast burning BP. And I can't make fireworks on a big scale because of limited space and money. I just like to make shells and salutes for holidays like halloween and new year's.I'm limited both my budget and working area, and I have the small 2x 3lbs tumbler (Lortone 33A).What I do, is I grind ~300 grams KNO3 in each tumbler overnight, and sort it with a fine sieve, 120# in my case.Then I use the ground KNO3 to make BP, which I sift through the same sieve 3 times with a shake/stir between each. 1
DaMounty Posted December 1, 2015 Posted December 1, 2015 I started off with a coffee grinder and a kitchen colander. Made decent enough powder for launching baseballs. DaM 1
Merlin Posted December 1, 2015 Posted December 1, 2015 I'm limited both my budget and working area, and I have the small 2x 3lbs tumbler (Lortone 33A).What I do, is I grind ~300 grams KNO3 in each tumbler overnight, and sort it with a fine sieve, 120# in my case.Then I use the ground KNO3 to make BP, which I sift through the same sieve 3 times with a shake/stir between each.
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