Merlin Posted October 29, 2015 Posted October 29, 2015 (edited) On fireworking.com is a method called "Easy cut stars, baggie method- nitrate the charcoal."I think it is only for chrysanthemum to tiger tails.I just made a batch and it is great. The stars are bound with srgs and the cut incredibly well with zero stickyness. Quick easy and precise easy drying stars. I made chrysanthemum 6 with ferotitanium added. Perfect no mess! https://www.fireworking.com/content/ezpz-cut-stars-baggie-method-potassium-nitrating-charcoal Edited October 29, 2015 by Merlin
MadMat Posted October 29, 2015 Posted October 29, 2015 (edited) Though I plan to roll stars in the future, cut stars are all I have made until now. I have tried rolling the wetted star comp into a patty and pressing it through a 4 mesh screen (1/4" stars) and have simply rolled out the patty and cut them with a pizza cutter. I use cheap flexible plastic cutting boards for rolling and cutting my stars. All in all it, I have made many stars with VERY little input cost for equipment. I haven't found a single star color yet that couldn't be cut. I would make myself a star pump/ plate if only I had access to a lathe and milling machine Edited October 29, 2015 by MadMat 1
dusty56 Posted October 29, 2015 Posted October 29, 2015 I make all of my cut stars with this method. SGRS for the binder and add moisture until comp holds together when squeezed. I put it into a 1 gallon bag and use spacers from 1/4 to 5/8 depending on the star I want. I roll the comp in the bag. Put small holes into the corners of the bag to release air. Roll to size. The bag gives you a square patty. Use razor blade and cut bag at the sides. With SGRS the comp is not sticky and the bag peals off. A piece of wax paper and turn the patty over. Remove rest of the bag and cut. When you work with this for awhile you can determine how much comp to mix for each thickness you want. Keep good notes. I also got this from Mr Gorskys video.
Maserface Posted October 29, 2015 Posted October 29, 2015 I believe Dave f is credited for the method, he is a member here and perhaps you could coerce him into sharing the details (for those of us that aren't able to reach beyond the paywall). 1
Merlin Posted October 29, 2015 Author Posted October 29, 2015 I believe Dave f is credited for the method, he is a member here and perhaps you could coerce him into sharing the details (for those of us that aren't able to reach beyond the paywall).
Merlin Posted October 29, 2015 Author Posted October 29, 2015 (edited) Dave did perfect it and Ned compiled it so I would think it's copyrighted. Don't know why Mr Forster would post on APC. It is ten times better than the skylighter cut screen method but I suppose it is limited to nitrate charcoal stars. Wish they could all be made this way. Edited October 29, 2015 by Merlin
Merlin Posted October 30, 2015 Author Posted October 30, 2015 I make all of my cut stars with this method. SGRS for the binder and add moisture until comp holds together when squeezed. I put it into a 1 gallon bag and use spacers from 1/4 to 5/8 depending on the star I want. I roll the comp in the bag. Put small holes into the corners of the bag to release air. Roll to size. The bag gives you a square patty. Use razor blade and cut bag at the sides. With SGRS the comp is not sticky and the bag peals off. A piece of wax paper and turn the patty over. Remove rest of the bag and cut. When you work with this for awhile you can determine how much comp to mix for each thickness you want. Keep good notes. I also got this from Mr Gorskys video.I make all of my cut stars with this method. SGRS for the binder and add moisture until comp holds together when squeezed. I put it into a 1 gallon bag and use spacers from 1/4 to 5/8 depending on the star I want. I roll the comp in the bag. Put small holes into the corners of the bag to release air. Roll to size. The bag gives you a square patty. Use razor blade and cut bag at the sides. With SGRS the comp is not sticky and the bag peals off. A piece of wax paper and turn the patty over. Remove rest of the bag and cut. When you work with this for awhile you can determine how much comp to mix for each thickness you want. Keep good notes. I also got this from Mr Gorskys video.
Merlin Posted October 30, 2015 Author Posted October 30, 2015 Does anyone know why most cut star formulas use dextrin? It seems clear to me sgrs is superior.It seems that both dextrin and sgrs wouldn't work as a binder unless water is used yet the red gum would not be activated without acetone or lacquer thinner?
Merlin Posted October 30, 2015 Author Posted October 30, 2015 Red gum and ethanol correct. I was thinking of original formula used dextrin and water as the binder. Because I used the Parlon with acetone Parlin and acetone
Merlin Posted October 30, 2015 Author Posted October 30, 2015 In a formula that contains parlon, red gum perc, barium nitrate and uses acetone to activate the parlon as a binder as well as a chlorine donor-Would it work to add sgrs and use water as a binder?
wildcherryxoxo Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 What the hell is the point of this thread?
Peret Posted October 31, 2015 Posted October 31, 2015 In a formula that contains parlon, red gum perc, barium nitrate and uses acetone to activate the parlon as a binder as well as a chlorine donor-Would it work to add sgrs and use water as a binder?Yes. I made red and green strobe stars from a formula that called for parlon/acetone binding and screen cutting. When I made them that way I was extremely unhappy with the results - they were uneven and misshapen and the only good thing to say about them was that they dried quickly. Last week I made the same stars with 5% dextrin and water and a star plate, and they came out just about perfect. (before priming)
Merlin Posted October 31, 2015 Author Posted October 31, 2015 I completed a couple lbs of 1/2 inch golden streamers. They tested fine. Will need some altitude so they burn out. I hate priming. You have perfectly shaped stars then you have to take the edges off with priming. (Except for rolled stars)All I am saying is when using the baggie method with SGRS they cut better, dry fast and are harder. Much better way of cutting than the "screen sliced method" I started with.
Mike Posted October 31, 2015 Posted October 31, 2015 Merlin the reason why dextrine is cited for most formulas instead of sgrs is availability. Dextrine is very easy to get. SGRS become recently much better available. An other easy and good binder with quite similar properties for cutting is wheat paste. It really needs to be kneeded into the comp.
Merlin Posted October 31, 2015 Author Posted October 31, 2015 Learn more every day! I have 50 lbs of wheat paste! Didn't know SGRS was in short supply. Must be demand issue cause there is no shortage rice.
DavidF Posted October 31, 2015 Posted October 31, 2015 Hey Merlin, why wouldn't I post on APC? Just because I got mocked a couple times? Heck, I've PAID to get mocked;) Yes it was me that came up with the baggie method, originally on Passfire. It was in answer to a question about how to make beginner stars. I tried a couple things and reported excellent results, but I guess the timing wasn't right. Later, Ned tried the method. After a few back and forth PM's, Ned had it working well for him and made his excellent tutorial. I'm no good at tutorials. In the original method, the idea was to dissolve all the saltpetre in the water first, and then fold in the pre-screened dry ingredients. The hot supersaturated solution penetrated the charcoal nicely. When cool enough to handle, the mixture could be formed into a big hot doughball. Then it was rolled out in a Ziploc freezer bag. I started with blonde streamer. Since then I have made spider stars, tigertail, tiger willow, willow, and willow diadem with this method. There were some complaints about returning embers, and the method was blamed. The truth is that it wasn't the method. It was other factors. I figured it out after doing many experiments. Failing to screen the mixtures thoroughly (minus the saltpetre, of course) will cause returning embers. So will incomplete drying or force-drying, but that's common knowledge. Using any coarse charcoal (even 100 mesh) will cause a spark shower that I find very unattractive. Some charcoals will cause embers to rain down no matter how well milled they are. I don't know why that is- but it is. While I was trying to figure out why folks had problems with embers when I NEVER did, I tried using cold water instead. I added room temperature water to the well-screened mix in the bag. Then the laborious process of kneading in the bag was done. SGRS does not activate instantly. So, leaving the moistened and partially-kneaded mass to sit for a while can save on elbow grease. I use a lot of water. For a 1000 gram batch I will use around 300 grams. The main difference between the cold and hot water methods is the stickiness. Like Merlin says, with the hot water method done Ned's way with 88% of the charcoal weight of water, there is no sticking. With the cold water method, the comp is rubbery, sticky, and flexible. Wiping the knife blade between cuts is helpful, and so is using scratch mix for priming. These stars don't need to be primed, but it helps with the cutting, so I do it. Ned uses dowels to set the thickness of the patty. I don't. I use the bag as a 'starbox'. I roll it firmly out, so the bag stretches a bit. Then it squeezes on the comp to help consolidate it better- IMHO. I also like to cut the edges of the squarish patty off, to be used in mines, or for a quick emergency pyro fix. I make all my charcoal-based stars this way now. Ned's video is freely available on Youtube. I just checked. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OilfbXG1Yn0 I do small rocket shows for my friends. Here is my latest flight of rockets. All stars were cut using the baggie method. The color stars were all damped with acetone at the rate of 100 grams of acetone per kilogram of composition. They are easy for even a beginner to make well. The willow diadem stars took me a while to get right. I thought the method was flawed. After many tests, I narrowed it down to the charcoal I was using. Milled red oak charcoal works perfectly. I expect that commercial airfloat would, also. I cut the willow diadem stars in 750 gram batches so they don't land still burning. This is a flight of 12 rockets. They are all 1# rockets pressed on TR-style tooling. The color shells are 5 inch, and the willow diadem are 4 inch. And no, TR tooling does not make my shell taping look any better. But this is about the stars, not the shells https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idMj75uls7U I hope this was helpful folks. 1
Merlin Posted October 31, 2015 Author Posted October 31, 2015 Wow that's is a lot of useful information! I happened on Neds tutorial on fireworking. Someone ask if I could post the tutorial on APC but I thought I might be violating a copyright or something. I think everyone can use the info you posted here. That's a lot of research and deserves some recognition! I cut, roll, and press but your method is much better than trying to screen cut rubber stars at least for the charcoal based formulas. I have only been a pyro for about two years so I have a lot to learn from folks with experience. Thanks so much for your post.
Merlin Posted October 31, 2015 Author Posted October 31, 2015 (edited) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idMj75uls7U That was incredible! Anyone would be proud of that display. Edited October 31, 2015 by Merlin
MrB Posted November 2, 2015 Posted November 2, 2015 Does anyone know why most cut star formulas use dextrin? It seems clear to me sgrs is superior. Availability. Possibly also price.B!
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