Toro star rolling explained

[Ubehage]

I just found these videos, of a guy who demonstrates and tells how to roll stars with the Toro method:

 

Star Rolling with Toro Method -- Toro Application 1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a120OIbsy0c

 

Toro star rolling - Session 3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7I0pGM9bjcM

 

Toro star rolling - Session 4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_aaof8QSw4

 

Toro star rolling - Session 9

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsRWQeayD7A

Edited September 21, 2015 by Ubehage

[wizard7611]

Thank you!

[Mumbles]

Yes, Steve has been producing an excellent series of these. I suggest checking out the conversations on Passfire or fireworking for a more in depth description and details on the process. The last I checked the conversation on Passfire was better.

[dave321]

nice vids of the process

 

excellent

[FloridaCracker]

I have yet to try this and only seen it attempted once. They were following a video of Japanese star making where tons of stars were being made at once. But they added much more liquid at a time which got the drum and everything covered in the Toro. Very different than the few drops added shown in these videos. But I guess there are different ways to do something though I think it could take years and many experiments to become great.

 

I would think using so little Toro may not give an even coat and cause them to grow at different rates but he states they are very even. And the Japanese are known for their star rolling so who knows what's best?

 

The Toro always looks very thin almost water like consistency. I used to wonder if the Toro was adding comp and helping the stars grow but it must not when so thin. Which makes me wonder what the advantage to just plain water is if they are both acting as a wetting solution for the dry powder to stick to. Maybe with comp already dissolved and mixed in to a saturated solution, the Toro doesn't tend to dissolve the outer layer or leach a chemical out versus plain water. I wouldn't imagine a light coating of water wouldn't either, or at least not very much, so maybe the Toro allows a bit more variance and allow them to be heavy handed when adding Toro in a production setting. Just thinking out loud a bit.

 

I would love to see the stars made by the Japanese masters for their competition shells where they produce amazing effects such as a color change that rolls across the star. Those stars must be perfectly uniform and within hundredths of an inch if not thousandths. I wonder if they have special methods or just tons of experience, patience and precision and they cherry pick out of huge batches.

 

I found the Japanese video I was talking about previously. Looks like Ned has borrowed it as I'm almost positive his website wasn't advertised when we were watching it a few years ago.

 

 

 

[MrB]

I have yet to try this and only seen it attempted once. They were following a video of Japanese star making where tons of stars were being made at once. But they added much more liquid at a time which got the drum and everything covered in the Toro. Very different than the few drops added shown in these videos. But I guess there are different ways to do something though I think it could take years and many experiments to become great.

 

The main problem when it comes to reproducing this, is simply the scale at which you have to work. To add a lot of fluid, you need a lot of stars, and at a larger size then most of us roll. Well, generally, at least.

B!

[mikeee]

You can do smaller batches in the star rollers, you might need to adjust the angle for the number of stars. You also need to adjust the consistency of the Toro slurry depending on the size of the stars. If you listen to the sound of the stars rolling in the drum you can tell when it is ready to add Toro slurry when the stars sound hard and are making a louder noise. After adding the Toro slurry the stars make less noise in the drum and you can see that they have picked up any excess slurry that was on the drum this is the best time to add the dry compound.

[MrB]

My point wasn't related to the amount of stars in them self, but rather the relationship. Working with 1000 5-6mm stars you have to use drops when adding slurry, and then carefully dust it with composition.

Working with 5000 1" stars you can add a cup of slurry, and follow it with a good size batch of composition. Weight, and surface area is working to your advantage. With a bit of size, you can grow them a lot faster. It is getting there, that sucks.

B!

[schroedinger]

You can certainly use that method. Adding so much toro that everything gets covered in it. If you do so, you need to use a thin toro, to prevent the stars from bulking up. The tricky part is there adding the powder. You need to sprinkle it directly onto the stars jn small increments and let the tumble between adds. This way the stars will pick up all the comp and also collect the toro. If you do so you get the stars looking just like the ones in commercial fireworks with a very slicksurface. Edited September 28, 2015 by schroedinger

[Mumbles]

This really isn't as hard as you guys are making it out to be. Try it at least once before making somewhat unfounded blanket statements about this. The amounts used is probably more on the order of tablespoons (15mL) for hobbyist sized batches. The biggest issues thus far as that people haven't figured out how to effectively roll directly from cores, and most people are sticking to relatively thin layers (1-2mm per session).

 

That said, the toro method tends to result in much more even star growth, and is amenable to multiple sessions per day.

 

I use this method all the time for slurry priming stars. Since thickness and uniformity isn't as big of a factor, I can get the stars wetter than if trying to roll. To put things in perspective, I use 10% w/w of slurry (50% comp, 50% water or alcohol) to wet the stars, and an additional 5% or so dry composition. I do this by manually stirring in a bowl, and do need to get my hands in there a little bit to break up anything sticking, but it works great.

 

I'd suggest anyone to give this a shot. If you start with 5-6mm cores, it goes pretty easily once you get a feel for slurry thickness. Thinner for smaller stars, thicker for larger stars.

[mikeee]

The Toro method seems to be more forgiving and tends to make consistent round uniform stars

compared to misting water onto the stars and dusting with dry powder. The Toro method uniformly

coats the star in the wet slurry whereas the spray misting method can be hit and miss on the stars

getting evenly wet to pick up the dry powder.

[Ubehage]

He just uploaded a new video in this series:

 

Toro star rolling: Session 15 - Priming

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMi2Uf18fho

[wizard7611]

He just uploaded a new video in this series:

 

Toro star rolling: Session 15 - Priming

This is a great demonstration video of what Mikeee was referring to with the stars making different volumes of sounds.

Edited December 5, 2015 by wizard7611

[dynomike1]

Glad you put these videos up. The only one i ever saw is the Japanese.

[mikeee]

The Toro method makes it easier to wet the stars evenly. If your slurry is too thin you just add more star compound to the slurry. If your slurry is too thick you just add a little water. You end up with the same measured amount of dry star compound on the exterior of your stars during each rolling session. Plus you don't wear your finger out pumping a spray bottle of water wetting your stars during each session. Watching the interior of the rolling drum is another quick and easy indicator for knowing when to add the dry star compound, after adding the wet slurry you can readily see when the drum wall is clean of the wet compound being picked up by the stars. When adding the dry star compound you can also readily see when most of the dry compound has been picked up by the wet stars. These rolling sessions go pretty quick and if you have several batches of stars to work with you can empty the drum to let one batch dry and load the drum with the next batch and keep rolling, this method really increases the efficiency of time used for rolling stars..

Edited December 6, 2015 by mikeee

[schroedinger]

The method he uses certainly works good. But like allready mentioned before, the japanese use a way thinner toro when making stars. For everyone who has problems with the toro method, use a thinner slurry, this way it is much more forgiving.

[Mumbles]

Which of the video or videos are you referring to? In the very first video he talks about how you start thinner with smaller stars, and can get thicker as they grow larger. This is pretty common knowledge and practice to prevent stars from sticking together.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Mumbles

[mikeee]

The main point is the slurry is easily thinned or thickened as required during the rolling process.

If it seems too thick add a little water and stir up the slurry as needed.

If it seems too thin add a little dry star comp and stir up the slurry as needed.

There is no way to goof it up you can always add which ever component to correct the slurry.

[schroedinger]

In general, but speciallyvwith the later vids. E.g. the toro in the priming video looks looks to be a max of 1:1. Here you can still use a 1:5-8 toro, which will distribute much faster and speed up the rolling process. Don't be afraid to have toro all over your the inside of the roller. Just keep adding powder until it is dry again. Like pointed out before this is just an variant of toro rolling, you need to find what works best for you.

[Edd]

In general, but speciallyvwith the later vids. E.g. the toro in the priming video looks looks to be a max of 1:1. Here you can still use a 1:5-8 toro, which will distribute much faster and speed up the rolling process. Don't be afraid to have toro all over your the inside of the roller. Just keep adding powder until it is dry again. Like pointed out before this is just an variant of toro rolling, you need to find what works best for you.

 

Sorry I was in a bad mood earlier.

 

I've never really seen any videos where the slurry was anywhere close to 1:5-8. A couple of people I've built with who've been doing this on a semi-commercial scale echo this sentiment. At that point you might as well be using spray and dust. 1part comp to 3ish parts comp is plenty thin for anything larger than raw cores. Getting toro all over the barrel is a bad idea though. I guarantee there will be uneven build up.

 

Check out some of Butario's videos. In fact watch any of the japanese videos. You'll see even for 5mm cores the slurry is no thinner than 2 or 3 parts water to 1 part composition. For stars over 15-18mm the slurry can be basically so thick no dry composition is even required. The stuff is essentially scooped in. I promise the distribution is just fine.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Edd

[MrB]

I have no idea whats right or wrong at this point. But if we look at this clip:

 

It seams to suggest the slurry is close to the consistency of water. Which to me, makes sense. If i was making stars at an industrial level, id want to use the same slurry regardless of size. I might even go as far as to say that i'd want to use the same slurry for a bunch of different colors, if i could get away with it. Make it thin, use only the chemicals they have in common for the slurry, and adjust the "dry" formula for it. Now, i'm still working on getting a consistent star rolling process, looking for a new bigger barrel with a shape i like, so on, so forth, so i have little experience with toro. But from what i've seen anything slightly thicker then water "should" work.

Now, if you can add slurry that is so thick you don't need the dry stuff, thats close to perfect, since it saves you from using both, but it seams both approaches should work, no?

B!

[dusty56]

In my roller I don't want Toro on the drum. It will just build up and create problems for ME. For others I don't know. I do know that I think the Toro method is great. When I first read about it in FAST I just said huh? When you start using the method you learn to look at the stars/cores. You will see the moisture spread across the stars. You will learn where to apply the Toro as you watch it move across the pile. Listen to the roller and you can hear the change from wet to dry. Reach into the roller and stir the stars with you hand. And I find that the thickness of the Toro is something I have learned from doing. Try something. If it is to thin the drum/stars will tell you. If I get moisture on the drum I'v made the stars to wet and I reach in to the pile and spread them across the drum and then add some dry com. It's like everything in this hobby/obsession. Listen to everybody and learn. Then go teach yourself.

[Seymour]

In my experience, if you add the correct quantity of slurry, the dry powder phase is quite capable of cleaning up nearly all the slurry that is on the roller/rolling container.

 

I am very happy to put the slurry directly on the wall of the roller and not actually on the stars, and then mix it all over both stars and the walls of the roller. With correct technique you can recover most of the built up composition using both slurry and sprinkle spray techniques.

 

Personally I just accept that some composition builds up on the roller. It can and should be minimised as much as is practical, but not worried about. The trick is really not over wetting, or more importantly in my opinion, adding too much dry powder. As I've repeated now, I do not really care at all if I get slurry on the roller, because it can be cleaned up by the stars, and at the end of a batch if there is NO comp on the walls that is great, but not very realistic. As long as there is not a large % of the composition you tried to roll on the stars stuck to your roller, the build up is just normal.

 

From both a hobby and commercial perspective, my advice is to accept both that you will get comp stuck to your roller, and minimise it as much as you can without getting stressed. To me this basically just means "don't add too much comp in slurry or powder form at any time".

[mikeee]

When adding slurry to the drum if the stars don't clean up the slurry on the surface of the rolling

drum you are adding too much slurry for the batch of stars being rolled. When the stars have

the dry comp applied to them the "dry star" will quickly clean slurry that is dumped onto the drum roller

or onto the stars themselves. As the stars grow in size you can add larger amounts of slurry to the batch,

you are better off adding a little less slurry and just enough dry comp on each layer which will make a uniform

round star. It helps to know how many stars are rolling in the drum and what diameter the stars are, this will

give you a value to use to determine the quantity of slurry that can be added during each rolling session.

Use a measuring spoon or small cup and measure the slurry you add each time and adjust up or down as

needed and take notes on the size of stars and how much slurry and comp used on each session.

[zan89]

Does anyone starts rolling stars with no cores, and what is the technic?