First Batch Of Rolled Stars - Raspberries!

[LiamPyro]

After finishing my 5-gallon bucket star roller, I spent the next couple hours rolling my first batch of stars, which were Tiger Tail + 10% FeTi rolled onto millet with 75/25 water/alcohol. I know charcoal comps can be hard to roll, but I have limited amounts of color composition chemicals so I figured I'd give it a go. Anyways, the cores (about 1.25 spoonfuls) started easily and grew nicely to about 1/8", at which point I took out about 2/3 of them and left the other third to roll. This was because I only had 100g of star composition and wanted to grow them to 1/4". Some time after, when the stars had grown a little, they began to raspberry. I immediately sprayed them with solvent until they were nice and wet, then let them roll for about 5 mins. This reduced the problem, but the raspberries were back as soon as I added powder and wetted again. I tried increasing the percentage of alcohol, which had essentially no effect. I also had problems with stars sticking together from too much moisture, which further screwed them up (I know how to avoid this in the future). The resulting 1/4" (roughly) stars were complete raspberries, but had surprisingly close size even though I didn't screen them whatsoever. What did I do wrong? Is there any way to avoid this in the future? Should I change the RPM of the roller? Should I change the angle? Would pics of the setup help? Should I try a color composition such as Buell Red? Thanks for any help!

Here's a picture of the finished stars, note that some were sort of broken-off chunks of other stars, which is why a few are much smaller.

Edited August 18, 2015 by LiamPyro

[LiamPyro]

Eeeek!! Sorry about the double topic! (Had no idea that was even possible LOL) Admins please delete!

[Xtreme Pyro]

I've found when rolling charcoal stars they need ALOT more moisture than you would use in a color comp, It sounds like maybe your increment size is a bit too much, start off with adding smaller increments of powder.. Slow and steady wins the race

 

Since I switched to using the toro method a couple years ago, I haven't ran into anymore issues with raspberries. If you aren't sure what toro is, it's basically a 2:1 mixture of water to composition, basically you are making a slurry just a tad thinner than honey. Grow the stars the way you always have to at least 1/8", after that you can switch to using your slurry. This slurry will replace your spray bottle, completely coat the stars until they have a "glossy" appearance, and add your powder. Make sure to start with small amounts first until you get the process down, as adding too much will surely ruin your night. I do believe this process is described in F.A.S.T, Ned also has a great tutorial on fireworking.

 

I've attached a photo of some 1" stars I rolled awhile back using the method described above, you can see there are no issues.

 

Feel free to ask questions, It's getting late and I probably missed something

 

Edited August 18, 2015 by Xtreme Pyro

[PIL]

I've found when rolling charcoal stars they need ALOT more moisture than you would use in a color comp, It sounds like maybe your increment size is a bit too much, start off with adding smaller increments of powder.. Slow and steady wins the race

 

Since I switched to using the toro method a couple years ago, I haven't ran into anymore issues with raspberries. If you aren't sure what toro is, it's basically a 2:1 mixture of water to composition, basically you are making a slurry just a tad thinner than honey. Grow the stars the way you always have to at least 1/8", after that you can switch to using your slurry. This slurry will replace your spray bottle, completely coat the stars until they have a "glossy" appearance, and add your powder. Make sure to start with small amounts first until you get the process down, as adding too much will surely ruin your night. I do believe this process is described in F.A.S.T, Ned also has a great tutorial on fireworking.

 

I've attached a photo of some 1" stars I rolled awhile back using the method described above, you can see there are no issues.

 

Feel free to ask questions, It's getting late and I probably missed something

 

torostars.jpg

How do you deal with the powder that sticks onto the bucket? Is it necessary to wipe away slurry before adding the dry powder? I often find my stars stick to the bucket when slurry is added. What's the solution to it? My batches are small, 50 to 100 grams.

[LiamPyro]

I forgot to mention, I sort of tried the toro method and my stars just stuck together. Thinner slurry maybe?

[LiamPyro]

One other question I had, what is the best way to size stars? I've heard of one way where as the stars are nearing target size, you repeatedly (after every increment or two of powder) pass them through a screen of your desired size and take out those that stick and keep rolling those that pass through. Also, an unrelated question, is the toro method effective for small stars, as I'm only going to be rolling 3/16" through 3/8" stars? I tried stacking the raspberried 1/4" stars in a 3 inch hemisphere, and the fit nicely. I don't have enough stars for a whole shell though.

Here's a pic:

 

EDIT: adding photo

Edited August 18, 2015 by LiamPyro

[Bcorso85]

I had the exact same problem with exact same comp yesterday. Only difference is I hand rolled mine. In order to work the raspberries out you have to roll the stars very fast. And vigerously. The stars were wet enough so if I stopped for a second they would all clump. When I stopped to check them and they clumped... I hit them with a healthy dose of composition and rolled just as hard to pick up the toro I just created. So basically I hand rolled as hard as I could for about 5 minutes.... and hit it with some dry powder. Always keep the dry powder on hand. It will save you! Another way to avoid raspberries is to roll a bigger batch of stars. The weight of the other stars rolling around will help keep them all smooth. A small batch of cores like you rolled is very difficult and will cause such problems.

 

As far as the Toro method goes, you need to have some dry comp set aside to add to the stars as they grow and stick. You should have a "toro container" and a "dry container" to roll with the toro method..... exactly like rolling out the lumps. It's not exactly suited for small 100g batches.

 

To pick up the dry comp on the sides during rolling is to spray it with solvent and rub it in.... creating toro. Let your stars roll through it to pick it up and hit it with some dry comp or primer.

[Bcorso85]

And yes the color comps are easy to roll. I like an ammonium perc based blue. I roll them into cores on pasta grains. Prime and dry, then roll a charcoal comp on top.

[dynomike1]

When i roll charcoal based stars, when i get to around 1/8" i spray them then powder them then wait around a + - minute. Then start over. If you wait a while (presuming there is to much powder) it will draw the moisture out of the star and round them out, if not spray a shot or to of 75-25 then wait again. Basically the only way around this is practice.

[LiamPyro]

Thanks for all the helpful replies! Dynomike, I think I'll give that a try. Aren't you supposed to wait after adding solvent and before sprinkling powder though? Also, have you tried granulating the star composition, then milling it to around 100 mesh? I've heard this can help reduce the risk of raspberries.

 

Bcorso85, what do you mean by having a "toro container" and a "dry container"? Do you usually roll with toro or with the modified western method that you mentioned in the top of your post?

 

Xtreme Pyro, those are some nice looking stars! Do I need to make the toro slurry extra-thin when rolling onto 1/8" stars, then increase the viscosity as the stars enlarge? Also, should I stop to let them dry frequently? One other thing I was wondering, is toro only used with charcoal stars?

Thanks!

Edited August 18, 2015 by LiamPyro

[Xtreme Pyro]

How do you deal with the powder that sticks onto the bucket? Is it necessary to wipe away slurry before adding the dry powder? I often find my stars stick to the bucket when slurry is added. What's the solution to it? My batches are small, 50 to 100 grams.

 

PIL,

 

If your stars are sticking to the drum you are adding too much toro, or it is not thin enough. Try adding a bit less slurry. As for wiping the excess powder, I don't really find it necessary, it usually gets picked up over time as the stars dry out. However, i'm usually rolling some fairly large batches, so if it helps you for your specific batch size, go for it. How many cores are you using?

 

Xtreme Pyro, those are some nice looking stars! Do I need to make the toro slurry extra-thin when rolling onto 1/8" stars, then increase the viscosity as the stars enlarge? Also, should I stop to let them dry frequently? One other thing I was wondering, is toro only used with charcoal stars?

Thanks!

Thanks! Yeah I would thin it down a bit for stars that small (1/8"), or you may run into clumping issues. Once you get them to about 1/4", you can make it thicker.

Toro can be used for colored stars as well, but I typically only use it for high charcoal content stars, priming, and coating cotton seed burst charge.

 

I must say, for being your first batch of rolled stars- those aren't bad at all! Keep practicing and you'll have it down in no time.

 

- XP

Edited August 18, 2015 by Xtreme Pyro

[schroedinger]

If your batches are only 50 to 100 g you should consider pumping your primary method, rolling gets easier as more stars you are rolling. This will increase your results.

[TYRONEEZEKIEL]

Bigger batches are substantially easier to roll than smaller ones. In fact, the bigger the batch the easier it is. I havent found a cut off point for that yet. Start with a minimum of 1/4 cup of cores. Anything below that is really a waste of time for star rolling.

[schroedinger]

I find that they get easy if you do at least 1/3 of your rollers max capacity.

[Bcorso85]

When you use the toro method, as i know it, the stars are rolled using both drycomp and toro. As you ladel some toro onto the stars they become wet. as they keep rolling you need to add some dry comp. you just cant keep adding soupy liquid to the stars. Just like when you roll stars now. I rarely use toro method because I never make anything bigger than a 4. My 4's are pretty big I really cant shoot anything larger. The stars I make don't necessary need to be large enough unless its a dahlia or palm tree. In that case I ram a glitter formula or streamer comp.

[Bcorso85]

There's an excellent youtube video posted by Ned that shows japanesse star rolling with toro. The japanesse are quite skilled in the art. Check it out its really cool.

[gregh]

Some versions of the toro don't even use dry powder. There were several people discussing this recently on FW. They increase the viscosity as the stars grow and never use a dry powder. However, most people over there that roll stars by the kilo daily, only roll about a 1/16" at a time and let them dry a few hours and then roll another increment. The key is to find what works for you and your set-up. Fortunately, you might just have to make lots of fireworks to perfect it!

[LiamPyro]

Thanks! Yeah I would thin it down a bit for stars that small (1/8"), or you may run into clumping issues. Once you get them to about 1/4", you can make it thicker.

 

Toro can be used for colored stars as well, but I typically only use it for high charcoal content stars, priming, and coating cotton seed burst charge.

 

I must say, for being your first batch of rolled stars- those aren't bad at all! Keep practicing and you'll have it down in no time.

 

- XP

Thanks for the encouragement and good info! I didn't know toro could be used to coat carriers... cool!

 

Schroedinger, I actually built myself a star plate (5/16" 20 pins) and it works great. The reason I want to make rolled stars is so that I can make a variety of star sizes, make color changers, and most importantly achieve flawless burst symmetry. I know it may seem a bit silly to make a 100 or 200 gram batches, but for now I'm forced to use relatively small quantities as I have only a pound of each chemical, except for KNO3 (3 lbs) and KCIO4 (2 lbs). I mean I could make stars by the kilo, and only make like 3 batches LOL.

 

TYRONEEZEKIEL, a quarter cup is waaaaaaaay to much for making enough stars for a few (at most) 3 inch shells, which is what I'm looking to do.

[LiamPyro]

I'm going to roll another batch of charcoal stars, although not using toro as it might be ineffective for the batch size. I am however going to granulate and then lightly mill the star mix, which brings the mesh size to around 100 mesh and is supposed to help reduce the chance of raspberries. Also, I'm gonna really take my time even more and roll in stages over the next couple days. I'll let you guys know how it goes! Edited August 20, 2015 by LiamPyro

[Arthur]

IMO rolling is for making lots of stars, for small batches cut them or pump them. (lots meaning a kilo or more).

[TYRONEEZEKIEL]

Liam. If that's too many cores to start with, which it really isn't. You are far far far far better off cutting or pumping your stars.

[LiamPyro]

Sorry if I come off as bitchy, but I think that as long as you are devoted there is no reason not to roll small batches of stars. I mean why not? Sure it might be harder to start cores (which despite what others say, I found to be quite easy) and requires precision when adding powder and solvent, but I don't really mind considering the benefits of a round star.

 

EDIT: Re-wording

Edited August 23, 2015 by LiamPyro

[pyrokid]

My advice is to comb thrift stores. I've found many great metal rolling bowls that had a past life as cooking implements. They work quite well to roll stars starting with only ~3.5 grams of millet.

 

Rolled stars are the most efficiently produced form of color changers. The effort is worth it in my opinion.

[LiamPyro]

I already have a 5-gallon bucket star roller, would a bowl be better? The roller seems to work fine (I have yet to try another batch of stars) although the bucket isn't quite round, so it wobbles. I can easily replace it, but it doesn't seem to have any effect on how the stars roll. Thx

[pyrokid]

We understand that the cores are most sensitive to variations in technique when they are very small. I roll them by hand up to 1/4" or 5/16." After this, they have some tolerance for non ideal conditions. If you think about it, the total star surface area grows quickly as the stars grow, so individual scoops of comp or sprays of water have a smaller and smaller effect on the body of stars.

 

I think bowls are generally better suited than 5 gallon buckets.