bjc4073 Posted August 11, 2015 Posted August 11, 2015 I bought this tooling from Pyroworkshttp://pyroworks.us/fireworks-building-tools/1-2-rocket-tooling.htmlI expected it to be ok but it has burnt through the entire fuel load instantly, creating a loud and dangerous rocket motor. I loaded it with 6-3-1 which violently blew up. I then put tt fountain mix in which did the same thing though not as powerful. The nozzle was about 4mm which seemed small. Any ideas? I'm convinced its the tooling since Ive had success with other tooling and the same comps.
insutama Posted August 11, 2015 Posted August 11, 2015 it looks like that 1/2" tooling is nozzle less so maybe try not using a nozzle
bjc4073 Posted August 11, 2015 Author Posted August 11, 2015 it looks like that 1/2" tooling is nozzle less so maybe try not using a nozzle A nozzleless coreburner?
Andres1511 Posted August 11, 2015 Posted August 11, 2015 Yes, a lot of people use nozzleless coreburners.
asdercks Posted August 11, 2015 Posted August 11, 2015 A nozzleless core burner rocket allows you to use hot fuels
bjc4073 Posted August 11, 2015 Author Posted August 11, 2015 Yes, a lot of people use nozzleless coreburners.Ken from Pyroworks just replied to an email and thinks it is my comp even though it has worked with a 1/4'' nozzle.
schroedinger Posted August 11, 2015 Posted August 11, 2015 Try it with hot fuel and nozzleless. Maybe you also press to big increments, not enough force or bad tubes?
Mumbles Posted August 11, 2015 Posted August 11, 2015 The nozzle diameter is a about right actually. Most core burners have a nozzle diameter 1/3 of the casing diameter approximately. Some of the hybrid tooling has diameters closer to 1/2, but that tooling doesn't seem unreasonable. I'm not sure what to tell you since you've used other tooling with success. It could be a compaction problem as others have mentioned. How long is the core, and how long of tubes are you using? Most of the formulas are based upon using commercial airfloat, which isn't all that great. If you're using something hotter or homemade, this might be crossing the line into CATO's. I honestly have no idea what tt fountain mix it. I assume something based on tiger tail? Tiger tail is not very fast at all. If they're blowing up, it's because slag is blocking the nozzle, or some sort of operator error.  You could always try enlarging the nozzle throat after ramming/pressing the rocket to see if that fixes anything.  I hate to say it, but sometimes you get what you pay for.
insutama Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 that tooling does not look like its meant for nozzles, it doesn't have a convex shape to the rammer its flat
bjc4073 Posted August 12, 2015 Author Posted August 12, 2015 The nozzle diameter is a about right actually. Most core burners have a nozzle diameter 1/3 of the casing diameter approximately. Some of the hybrid tooling has diameters closer to 1/2, but that tooling doesn't seem unreasonable. I'm not sure what to tell you since you've used other tooling with success. It could be a compaction problem as others have mentioned. How long is the core, and how long of tubes are you using? Most of the formulas are based upon using commercial airfloat, which isn't all that great. If you're using something hotter or homemade, this might be crossing the line into CATO's. I honestly have no idea what tt fountain mix it. I assume something based on tiger tail? Tiger tail is not very fast at all. If they're blowing up, it's because slag is blocking the nozzle, or some sort of operator error.  You could always try enlarging the nozzle throat after ramming/pressing the rocket to see if that fixes anything.  I hate to say it, but sometimes you get what you pay for. Thanks for the time. core is 2'' long while tubes are 5'' which is standard I think. Commercial airfloat from skylighter. TT is a tiger tail mix. The only thing I could think of is the small amount of hot glue holding the fuse. I would think it would melt/ blow out instantly but again I have had success with bottle rockets (1/4'') which uses the same mix, hot glue, etc. Increments were about 1 teaspoon which should be a little high. I honestly don't care if it's the tooling, I just want this to stop with better tooling (pyrodirect looks good). I understand getting what you pay for. I just got it to "play" with but after getting $30 in tubes it just doesn't make sense to cheap on tooling. As soon as pyrodirect comes back in stock, I'll buy the tooling. BTW Ken from Pyroworks had nothing to say on whether or not to put in a nozzle.
gregh Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 Here is a good place to get tooling. Caleb is one of our own and has good stuff. https://squareup.com/market/WoodysCreations
Arthur Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 It's your rocket, your design! If it catos then either the tube, the powder the tool or technique are wrong. Everything you can think of is part of the design not just the tool. Try looking at the compound -Too hot and it will cato to mild and it will burn for ever and not lift off. No tool maker can guarantee their tool against all other variants of the design. How much to you mill your comp? One old method was to mill comp and take a sample every hour or so, then learn what milling you need to just cato then mill fuel for just less than that, -as fast as possible without a cato.
schroedinger Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 If you use anozzle, use only screened not milled fuel. Alsl i had a look at the pyrocreations site, the 1/2" set they offer is an end burner not core burner. Yes yiu are right do not skimp o the tooling, it won't pay. Go with caleb, wolther or ben tooling.
Col Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 A quick fix that will allow you to play while waiting for the new tooling is to enlarge half the core length to 6mm /1/4". Dont use an electric drill, just a drill bit
calebkessinger Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 Lose the nozzle till you get used to that tooling and what you can do with it.My msr. Tooling has a smaller diameter spindle than that and we are having a blast with almost any type of rocket on them. We are using a pvc tube support and a small press getting great results without a nozzle with both hot BP and whistle. Then nozzled with hit bp. The 1/2 in universal spindle is pretty great also. Talk about a screamer when used with straight whistle. Those Things ARE Lifting 1.5 IN Salutes Way Up there. Â Keep trying. You wI'll get them to work shortly and be having a ball!!!
bjc4073 Posted August 12, 2015 Author Posted August 12, 2015 It's your rocket, your design! If it catos then either the tube, the powder the tool or technique are wrong. Everything you can think of is part of the design not just the tool. Try looking at the compound -Too hot and it will cato to mild and it will burn for ever and not lift off. No tool maker can guarantee their tool against all other variants of the design. How much to you mill your comp? One old method was to mill comp and take a sample every hour or so, then learn what milling you need to just cato then mill fuel for just less than that, -as fast as possible without a cato.Gerb and rocket mix both milled for one hour
schroedinger Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 Try with screened mix.Btw. Caleb you use a pvc support?
mikeee Posted August 19, 2015 Posted August 19, 2015 Adjust your fuel mix for the tooling and tubes until you have a reliable motors.Fine tuning is always required based on the strength of your tubes and spindle profile.
WonderBoy Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 (edited) Your tooling is not exactly top of the line, but I don't think that is your problem. I bet it is your increment size and/or your consolidation. What kind and size of mallet are you using? You said you're using 1 teaspoon increments, that is quite large for a 1/2" motor. It's a bit slow, but I have found 1/2 t. increments to work reliably, you might give it a try.  WB Edited August 20, 2015 by WonderBoy
Livingston Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 ive own a 1/2 rocket tooling from caleb and yet to ake BP motors. The first thing though I was taught while pressing a motor is increment size and pressing pressure.. Caleb what BP do use ratio? charcoal? milled or screen?
schroedinger Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 1 teaspoon is to much. You should press only enough to gain 1/4" of height per pressing.
Peret Posted August 21, 2015 Posted August 21, 2015 I have a 1 pound set like that from Pyroworks. I've never used it, because the spindle is so rough and badly turned I don't think I'd be able to pull a motor off it. Also it's so thin, compared with my other tooling, I don't trust it. I have other tools so I've put it aside as a nice piece of inexpensive brass for when I want to make something else.
AAF Posted September 5, 2015 Posted September 5, 2015 Over ramming with out a support weakening the tube? I have the 1/2" tooling set and CATOed a few with 60/40 sugar rocket mix
mikeee Posted September 6, 2015 Posted September 6, 2015 (edited) I tried a new fuel inhibiting technique at a club shoot this weekend that worked great. I had a large number of 8 ounce whistle fuel motors left over from several months ago that were cato'ing from the fuel being too hot for the strength of the tubes. I bought some of the cheap label core tubes off of Ebay to use for various applications. I poured 3-4 drops of thin super glue into the nozzle core of 15 motors and rolled them back and forth to coat the inner fuel grain. Each one of these motors worked fine as designed and burned their way to the delay fuel grain and each header was ignited. I also had 10 motors that I plugged the fuel core with several pieces of backer-rod foam to slow the flame path in the fuel core, each of these motors failed at launch. So it looks as though you can use a CA glue to salvage a motor by sealing the inner fuel grain to slow down the rate of combustion if the motors are cato'ing from the fuel being too "hot" or the tube being too weak. I was using a super BP spindle design with a standard whistle mix fuel on these motors. This ended up being a quick field applied solution for salvaging the motors that were having problems. Edited September 6, 2015 by mikeee
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