Best Paste For Small Ball Shells?

[Mumbles]

Apparently you're unaware of most major pyro suppliers. Precocious Pyro, Pyro Direct, Online Fireworks, Ebay, Pyro Creations, etc.

[rogeryermaw]

taiwan, there are sellers on apc that have good prices on rolls of about any size you need and for 1" and up you may try mcmaster carr. personally i haven't tried wheat paste yet but the pros choose it for more reasons than the low cost.

[LiamPyro]

Liam use straight flour and not starch.

 

I tried that, and still ended up with JELL-O after some time in the fridge. Not refrigerating it seems like a bad idea, as it would turn rancid in a couple days. Looks like I'll be going back to using PVA for the time being. On a bright note, I pasted 2 layers with fresh made wheat paste (made with flour) onto a couple 3 inch shells and was pleased with the easy workability and good strength.

[dusty56]

I like paper tape. Kyle Kepley on Passfire has formulas for cutting the tape to lengths for each shell. You actually get layers of tape for each rotation around the shell. I also glue the shell halves together when I assemble the shell. Every time I shoot I pick up the bits and pieces to examine. I found there was always a lot of seam remaining. The glue makes the seam almost as strong as the rest of the shell. Better breaks.

[Peret]

I used to use gummed tape all the time but have switched over to wheat paste - the kind sold as bookbinders paste. It's important to give it time to soak into the paper, and to use good paper. The cheap kind sold for wrapping parcels is made from recycled pulp. It has short fibers and no wet strength, it comes apart in your fingers when it's soaked. It's worth spending the extra for "virgin" kraft.

[Nessalco]

Just as an aside, Ned sells excellent quality virgin kraft. Reported to be the same stuff Tom N. used to sell.

 

Kevin

[LiamPyro]

I tried not refrigerating the wheat paste, and as soon as it cooled to room temperature it gelled up. Anyways... is it important to use virgin kraft and to soak the strips? Or is just using recycled kraft and brushing on paste/adhesive before applying the strip acceptable?

[Sparx88]

I tried not refrigerating the wheat paste, and as soon as it cooled to room temperature it gelled up. Anyways... is it important to use virgin kraft and to soak the strips? Or is just using recycled kraft and brushing on paste/adhesive before applying the strip acceptable?

 

This is an area I have a lot to say. You can use recycled kraft. And yes you can apply paste to both sides of the strips before putting them on the shell. Lay out a big peice of alum foil tape it down at the corners etc, use a 1" brush and coat the foil with paste liberally and lay out the strips as many as you can fit and paint more paste onto the strips. Let the paste absorb into the strips for few until they start to darken then start applying them to the shell. Just repeat all that until done. I add 20% gorilla or titebond wood glue to the paste these days gives extra tack and firmness when dry.

 

You can add 3-5% by volume of boric acid to your paste and it will preserve it for weeks and months even without a fridge. Just warm it to a steam in the mwave after each use and cap it. That and the boric work together and does'nt ruin the paste at all.

[schroedinger]

Sparx did you ever do a real comparision between virgin and recycled paper pasted shells? Virgin really gives a much better brake. Whereas recycled normally calls for a lot more booster to compete.

There is just no need for expensive glues like gorilla, just use straight paste. Also 3-5 vol% percent makes it nearly the same ammount as the flour (by weight). Just stay with normal paste and add a little bit of sorbate. It is much cheaper just like the flour itself is cheap.

[Ubehage]

I have little experience, trying to make my own starch. It turned out to be a mess, and not worth the effort.

(I still haven't figured out what I did wrong. And for now, it doesn't matter).

 

I use regular gummed-tape for the most part, and for the rest I use kraft-paper and premixed wallpaper-paste, thinned with water.

For 5 liters of paste, I use 2 liters of water, and mix it thoroughly.

I then just dunk my paper into the solution - and it works just as good, as if I had brushed it on.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Ubehage

[Sparx88]

Sparx did you ever do a real comparision between virgin and recycled paper pasted shells? Virgin really gives a much better brake. Whereas recycled normally calls for a lot more booster to compete.

There is just no need for expensive glues like gorilla, just use straight paste. Also 3-5 vol% percent makes it nearly the same ammount as the flour (by weight). Just stay with normal paste and add a little bit of sorbate. It is much cheaper just like the flour itself is cheap.

 

Yes and virgin is stronger but you can most certainly can use recycled. I don't need to use any booster due to pualownia bp's awesomeness but I do when I want a really big break or punched up break report. It's 3-5% boric acid by total Volume of finished paste. Citric acid, malic acid, tartaric acid, lactic acid also. I chose boric because I always have it. I'm sure there are dozens more chems for this purpose of preserving. Office Max carries rolls of 60 lb recycled kraft and that is what I use now and everything is up to snuff. Use regular wheat for the paste. 5 layers using my 2 strip or 4 layers with the famous 3 strip method. Letting the 60lb soak up the glue for a few minutes is needed no matter what. Breaking the 60 lb after soaking is advised. Not so much for 24 to 35 lb kraft but indeed a worthwhile step everytime. Note, using actuall Kraft, it should have that on the label. Regular cheap brown paper is'nt advised but can be used if in a pinch.

Adding wood glue specifically is what I recomend. It makes everything better really solidifies the fibers for both types. Dollar general sells 8 oz bottles of gorilla wood glue for $3.75 and will last you quite a long time if added in the paste or thinned to 70 water/30 glue and 15 wheat pastefor tube rolling. And if you intend to use recycled kraft it is what makes it work so well. I'm in no competition with anybody for shell performance, nor should anybody unless your actually in a real competition. Ok, look, there was a question and I answered it. 1 of many answers.

 

I never even darkened the doorstep to pre gummed tape paper, not that it sux, I was schooled in the traditional paste methods and stayed with it. I don't build a bunch I build one at a time. Pure hobby, every attention to detail possible. I'm getting older and slower and have no need to do anything faster. So I just try to do it better, than the last one Anybody reading this you can take my advice and use it, it works. Maybe a tweak or two for your own needs, but all in all I don't just throw out whatevers at the top of my head, unless it fell off. And I won't claim my ways are better than anyone elses because that is purely subjective to the person who is trying them.

 

I used to use gummed tape all the time but have switched over to wheat paste - the kind sold as bookbinders paste. It's important to give it time to soak into the paper, and to use good paper. The cheap kind sold for wrapping parcels is made from recycled pulp. It has short fibers and no wet strength, it comes apart in your fingers when it's soaked. It's worth spending the extra for "virgin" kraft.

 

Exactly.

 

That is true for both kinds of kraft. A lot of people do this, more often than not. If your in a hurry then I suppose soaking is a step you could skip, which I have a few times, but don't anymore because we are talking only about five to ten minutes. Even some pro's soak a stack of sheets in a plastic bag, cut and separate the strips, then apply. A paper shear works the best for this way. If you find a source for virgin kraft and you like the price by all means do it.

 

But yah homies my feet aren't being stepped on. I just see it as constructive criticism. I appreciate that because it's how things get done or improved. So are we still friends?

Edited September 10, 2015 by Sparx88

[Col]

Over here virgin kraft is much cheaper than gummed tape and only slightly more expensive than recycled kraft. A 3ft roll cut into 3/4" chunks will give you almost 10km of tape. Slicing chunks off a roll orientates the grain in the right direction and its a lot faster than cutting sheets into strips.

[stix]

I've been following this post with interest - hopefully not too far away from making my first shell. Perhaps a can first, then a ball. I've already got some 3/4" gummed tape, but I think I'll make some wheat paste and give that a go first. I work for a printing company so I'm sure I can get hold of some virgin kraft and perhaps convince the guillotine-ist to cut into nice strips for me

 

 

Over here virgin kraft is much cheaper than gummed tape and only slightly more expensive than recycled kraft. A 3ft roll cut into 3/4" chunks will give you almost 10km of tape. Slicing chunks off a roll orientates the grain in the right direction and its a lot faster than cutting sheets into strips.

 

Col, I'm not sure if that's correct. Slicing chunks off the roll at right angles (90deg) or across the roll, is perfect for rolling tubes, but not for paper strips.

 

We want the grain to run parallel with the strip (in the direction of the roll) - it will give the most strength when pulling on it, which is what you need when shell pasting (I would think). With a rocket motor tube however, the strength lies with the grain running parallel with the tube, and therefore we cut strips across the grain.

 

I always find this a bit confusing, but I think this is correct.

 

Cheers.

[Col]

Its the opposite to tube rolling. The machine direction will run the length of the sliced chunk, ie not across it. If its ribbed kraft, the rib lines will run off the sliced roll like this: II not like this: =

Just to clarify, the slice is cut from the roll so you`d get 45x 19mm slices from a 900mm wide roll (allowing for the blade kerf), 225m of tape per slice, about 9.9km in total.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Col

[stix]

Yes, it is the opposite of tube rolling - agreed. I guess we were meaning the same thing. Strips or Slices would have been a better choice of words than 'chunks'

 

Cheers.

Edited September 10, 2015 by stix

[Col]

Maybe slice would`ve been a better way to describe it..like cake. Swiss roll comes to mind

[stix]

Maybe slice would`ve been a better way to describe it..like cake. Swiss roll comes to mind

 

Now that IS and an excellent description Col. No ambiguity. <thumbsup>

[LiamPyro]

Thanks for the great information everybody (esp. Sparx88), I'm sure many others have found it useful as well. I think I'll try my luck with wheat paste again, and maybe see if I can get ahold of some virgin kraft.

[Col]

I have used a bandsaw before to cut a wide roll of gum tape down to size, however one time it jumped in the saw, and I'm too scared to do it again.

 

A slitting machine will do a much better job of it in a fraction of the time.

 

[PyroNinjaah]

I preferred to use wheat paste for my shells because of the very low cost of it. I make it following the directions here: http://destructables.org/destructable/wheatpaste-recipe-putting-postersbillboard-alterations When it's still hot I push it through a fine sieve and separate it into smaller containers, and they last for 1-2 weeks in the fridge. When it says to add 10 teaspoons of water to the flour, I add 10 tablespoons, because it's more runny and when you add it to the boiling water it doesn't form as many lumps. Wheat paste is actually stronger than white glue and it dries nice and hard. Edited September 24, 2015 by PyroNinjaah

[supercritical86]

i have been using wallpaper glue or paste same diff for a tad over 30 years on different applications and works well

[Nickmaslo]

I always used the Universal Border\Wallpaper sealant white glue from Home Depot. You can find it in the Paint section by the glues and solvents.