LiamPyro Posted August 4, 2015 Posted August 4, 2015 Currently, I'm making 2" and soon 3" ball shells. In the past I've used straight Elmer's for pasting the 2" shells and although it dries rock hard, it is a little annoying to work with IMO. So, I gave CMC paste a try. It was nice to work with, but I've heard it's a weak adhesive so I don't know (I haven't shot the CMC pasted shells yet). I did notice that the strips didn't want to stick down in some areas and took a bit of persuasion. What do you guys use for pasting small ball shells? What is the strongest/best type of paste? Wheat paste? Watered-down PVA? Or is gummed tape superior? Does the strength of the paste even matter much? BTW If there is already a topic discussing this, then if you could direct me to it that would be great. Thanks!
pyrokid Posted August 4, 2015 Posted August 4, 2015 Gummed tape is valuable for its consistency, and it works quite well in my experience. Wheat paste is really nice to work with though. It seems to possess great adhesive properties without being too sticky.
LiamPyro Posted August 4, 2015 Author Posted August 4, 2015 Sweet! Thanks for the reply! Did you notice any difference between gummed tape pasted shells and those pasted with wheat paste? I think I'll give wheat paste a try.
nater Posted August 4, 2015 Posted August 4, 2015 Shells hand pasted with strips of kraft and wheat paste are much more attractive than shells wrapped with gummed tape. Gummed tape is much faster to apply, although mine always turn out looking like eggs. I don't make many ball shells, but I use wheat paste and kraft paper for all of my shells and headers. Wheat paste is cheap and fast to make. All you need is flour, water and a pot to boil it in.
Col Posted August 4, 2015 Posted August 4, 2015 You can microwave a batch of wheatpaste in 5 minutes. If you use a microwavable snack noodle pot or a similar disposable container there`s no washing up 1
LiamPyro Posted August 4, 2015 Author Posted August 4, 2015 I've heard that wheat paste made with wheat starch instead of flour is superior. Is this true? Also does anybody have any idea of how wheat paste compares to white glue strength wise? Why I'm wondering is because white glue is kind of my basis by which to compare adhesives.
Nessalco Posted August 4, 2015 Posted August 4, 2015 I use paste made from wheat starch plus CMC. For pasting kraft it is excellent - it handles nicely, grabs well, and keeps in the refrigerator for weeks. It shrinks paper quite a bit, and many forms of twine as well. I prefer it to wheat paste made from flour simply because it is very quick to make, and keeps well. You whip it up in a blender. I won't compare it to any other adhesive - each one has its place. Elmer's, in all its forms, serves a purpose. I use Elmer's PVA for rolling certain tubes, because it dries hard without shrinkage. But for pasting shells, I want something that soaks into the paper and allows me to mold it, and shrinks tightly around spiking. Kevin
GreginCA Posted August 4, 2015 Posted August 4, 2015 For small production, I find the commercially available wall paper paste found at Home Depot to be very consistent, stores nicely, provides great working times, sets rock hard and saturates the paper very well. Yes, it costs more than mixing up your own wheat paste but it is convenient as hell.
nater Posted August 4, 2015 Posted August 4, 2015 Wheat starch has the advantage of not needing to be cooked. Just mix it in a blender and use. Wheat flour has the advantage of economy and most people always have a sack in their kitchen. I have not noticed any difference in the pasting quality between the two. Also, wheat paste cannot be compared to whiten glue at all. They are totally different adhesives with different purposes and properties.Wheat starch has the advantage of not needing to be cooked. Just mix it in a blender and use. Wheat flour has the advantage of economy and most people always have a sack in their kitchen. I have not noticed any difference in the pasting quality between the two. Also, wheat paste cannot be compared to whiten glue at all. They are totally different adhesives with different purposes and properties.
Col Posted August 4, 2015 Posted August 4, 2015 I always cook wheat starch or it doesnt thicken. For shell pasting i use a blend of 80% wheatpaste and 20% pva to give it a more aggressive initial tack.
gregh Posted August 5, 2015 Posted August 5, 2015 I do mostly ball shells and prefer gum tape. For the cylinders, I use boiled flour with kraft. If there was an effective way to use gum tape on cylinders, I would be there. Simply because I am usually covered head to toe with wheat paste by the end of a pasting session... (Imagine the Swedish Chef making fireworks!)
LiamPyro Posted August 5, 2015 Author Posted August 5, 2015 Thanks for the helpful replies! It seems to be that wheat paste or a mixture containing wheat paste is the most popular thing to use, besides gummed tape. I'll give it a try!
Rocketier Posted August 5, 2015 Posted August 5, 2015 I always put some sugar thru my wheatpaste to give it more stick. Advantage is when you accidentally lick your fingers they taste nice aswell. They methode I use for making strips is put wheatpast on both sides of a 50cm width en 2 meters long kraft paper peace. Fold in in like wallpaper. Then use a papercutter to make strips in the desired width. I produce the paper in one go. The best thing is to put the paper in a sealed plastic bag and put it in the fridge. Take out what you need. The rest can be stored for a long time. The nice thing of this methode is that you can rip the peaces of during pasting.
LiamPyro Posted August 5, 2015 Author Posted August 5, 2015 Oh so you let them soak? I must have missed something as I didn't do that. Good to know. For my most recent shells (the ones with CMC paste) I brushed paste over a board, layed the strips out, and then brushed over them and started pasting. What do you mean by "fold in like wallpaper". Do you mean folding the kraft sheet one way to make it a shorter cut for the paper cutter? One other question I had, for ball shells does the paper quality matter much? I'm using kraft sold as postal wrapping.
frederick Posted August 24, 2015 Posted August 24, 2015 I use pizza type flour from a local supply chain. Its their high gluten flour and it does a nice job, plus its cheap and readily available. My mix is 5 Cups flour, 1 TBSP of sugar, 1 Cup of cold water. Mix it cold and then bring to a boil, stirring constantly. Keeps good in the fridge, takes weeks before fermentation starts, most of the time. My 2 and 3 inch are wrapped with 50# recycled kraft from Staples. Cheap and free shipping last time I ordered. You won't be folding it in after its pasted however, to do that without frustration, will require virgin kraft.
nater Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 5 cups of flour to one cup of water? That seems more like dough than paste. What is the purpose of the sugar? Doesn't that just add food for natural yeasts and increase the speed it sours?
Col Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 (edited) I usually use 30g of wheat starch to 300g of water, any stronger and it results in something akin to a block of white rubber Edited August 25, 2015 by Col
braddsn Posted August 26, 2015 Posted August 26, 2015 Love gummed tape for consistency and it's cheap and easy. Papertec is my source.
gregh Posted August 26, 2015 Posted August 26, 2015 same here Brad. Except it doesn't work real well on cylinders... You should try them this year. 1
frederick Posted August 27, 2015 Posted August 27, 2015 (edited) Yes I got the ratio reversed, my bad.. 5 water 1 flour. I've mixed it at 7 to 1 down to 5 Nater and found 5 is ideal for recycled paper. The sugar adds a bit of tackiness to it, but I admit I haven't tried without the sugar in some time. It works well so why change. And no it doesn't sour, well it would if kept long enough. But, I have kept batches in the fridge for several weeks and never had a problem. Edited August 27, 2015 by frederick
LiamPyro Posted August 29, 2015 Author Posted August 29, 2015 I usually use 30g of wheat starch to 300g of water, any stronger and it results in something akin to a block of white rubber I tried using wheat starch mixed 1:4 and 1:8 with water (by volume). Both mixtures had a nice consistency but turned to JELL-O when refrigerated. I can't imagine how the ratio you mentioned would work because although it is 1:10 (by weight), water is very dense in comparison to starch. What am I doing wrong?
Mumbles Posted August 29, 2015 Posted August 29, 2015 6:1 by volume is about 10:1 by mass. The reason it thickened up so much is that you put it in the fridge. If you warm it back up, it thins back out somewhat. I've always found homemade wheat paste to get thicker upon sitting. I generally just get the pre-gelatinized stuff and make it as I need it. It's hard to judge how much cooking is enough, when you're going to be using it significantly cooler. Once it really sets up, it never really thins back out. You can just add more water though.
Col Posted August 29, 2015 Posted August 29, 2015 I dont refrigerate mine either so that may be the issue. I use the microwave to cook wheatpaste so i only make what i need. A 330g batch takes 5 minutes. If you need extra tack, add a little pva and give it a good whisking .
taiwanluthiers Posted August 29, 2015 Posted August 29, 2015 I like using gum tape, who cares what the shell looks like, it's gonna get blown up anyways. However where do you find gum tape less than 2" wide? I have used a bandsaw before to cut a wide roll of gum tape down to size, however one time it jumped in the saw, and I'm too scared to do it again.
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