Dragonflightpyro Posted July 24, 2015 Posted July 24, 2015 Hello, Can somebody tell me where rising effects fit in when it comes to weight specifications? Are they considered part of the lift or the aerial effect? Thanks a bunch. Alex
nater Posted July 24, 2015 Posted July 24, 2015 In the US, the entire explosive content of shell is considered for the weight of the break(s).The lift propels everything up, everything else is break or effect. This is why legal consumer multibreak shells other than simple peanut ball shells, are so pathetic and why you don't see many rising effects besides tails. Even with the mine to break effectS, the mine is part of the break.
Maserface Posted July 24, 2015 Posted July 24, 2015 I think for reasons of ex number approval, it would be considered part of the aerial effect. I'm guessing you are limited by weight to lift/burst/effect. Basing that off of nothing practical, keep that in mind
Dragonflightpyro Posted July 24, 2015 Author Posted July 24, 2015 Thanks for the replies. I guess I'm just going to have to live with the limitations of 1.4G for awhile.
Mumbles Posted July 24, 2015 Posted July 24, 2015 I just wanted to make sure you're aware of something. Even if you make a device to every regulation of 1.4G, it is still by default 1.3G for legal and transportation purposes unless you go through the trouble of paying for testing and an EX number. Nothing homemade is ever considered to be 1.4G.
taiwanluthiers Posted July 24, 2015 Posted July 24, 2015 (edited) I'm told it's not even 1.3 as well as 1.3 is a classification that must be applied for as well. Also 1.3 is a transportation class and you cannot transport homemade fireworks legally without a license. If you're concerned because you want to be setting off shells without getting in trouble, you'll need to check your local laws, because oftentimes local laws dictate what you can and can't set off. Federally you could make a 16" shell, set it off on your property without a license (but you cannot transport it anywhere else, it must stay on your property), but your locality may frown on that. Edited July 24, 2015 by taiwanluthiers
Maserface Posted July 24, 2015 Posted July 24, 2015 I would avoid the term "1.3" if it were a DOT or other roadside authority. "1.3" implies (to them) that it is commercial product and will get them asking for insurance/paperwork and all. I probably wouldn't use "homemade" lightly either. I would be confident using "unclassified display fireworks" to describe homemade fireworks, and of course always keep supporting documents handy. We need some clarification from OP though-
Arthur Posted July 25, 2015 Posted July 25, 2015 In the UK Fireworks default to 1.1 regardless. If they are professional and classified devices then lesser classifications may be applied for. There are default tables that show "an acceptable" classification for sizes and content of a firework without a full classification test. Remember that a firework (UN classified as) 1.n is classified for transport as packed. the transport packaging may have as much importance as the firework form and content.Technically a case of fireworks classified, loses that classification when you remove one from their number. So a box of 9 x six inch shells would likely be 1.3 in the UK but a box that only has 8 (ie you've used one) isn't classified and could default to 1.1.
Dragonflightpyro Posted July 28, 2015 Author Posted July 28, 2015 I'm so confused about the laws concerning "unclassified display fireworks." Or any other of the laws concerning making and using fireworks. I originally asked because although most 1.4G fireworks are illegal in my area, the punishment for using them is, I believe, only $100.00 fine although most police officers just confiscate everything they find you with. I was assuming that making and setting off fireworks that would be normally classed as 1.3G would result in stiffer penalties. Hoping to avoid that I wanted to keep my fireworking to the small stuff. Now there doesn't seem to be any legal way to do this.
nater Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 The best and easiest way to make fireworks legally is to join a local club. Many clubs have the means to legally manufacture in site and fire your device the same day or weekend.
Dragonflightpyro Posted July 31, 2015 Author Posted July 31, 2015 Just an update. I think the only reasonable answer to my worries is to get a type 54 and maybe a friendly local enthusiast with a magazine for storage. Or just make and light. But really think I'm just going to focus on getting licensed. Anyway, I had another legal type question. Is it permissible to store stars without a magazine? It would be nice to work on compositions (one of my favorite hobbies). Is there some law against having stars? It seems like it wouldn't be considered a firework until actually constructed. Then I could just make a bunch of other stuff like shell casings, black match, spolettes, tubes, nozzled tubes. Then I would be all ready when I wanted to construct. This is probably a really gray area. It doesn't seem like the laws are as exacting as they could be.
dagabu Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 Just an update. I think the only reasonable answer to my worries is to get a type 54 and maybe a friendly local enthusiast with a magazine for storage. Or just make and light. But really think I'm just going to focus on getting licensed. Anyway, I had another legal type question. Is it permissible to store stars without a magazine? It would be nice to work on compositions (one of my favorite hobbies). Is there some law against having stars? It seems like it wouldn't be considered a firework until actually constructed. Then I could just make a bunch of other stuff like shell casings, black match, spolettes, tubes, nozzled tubes. Then I would be all ready when I wanted to construct. This is probably a really gray area. It doesn't seem like the laws are as exacting as they could be. Mum and maserface already told you the legal implications, you need a magazine for anything homemade and almost all pyro not 1.4g. The one exception is rocket motors made for model rocket use. Under 62g, BP only, with a small BP charge and must be used to be recovered.
Dragonflightpyro Posted August 25, 2015 Author Posted August 25, 2015 Yes, I believe this might be the end of Dragonflight Pyro. All fireworking ceased and desisted with little hope of return. Never even got to noob status. Very disheartening.
taiwanluthiers Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 (edited) for homemade rocket motors, the only exception is for APCP based motor, and that's because it's no longer classified as an explosive by the ATF. Blackpowder motor is still classified as explosive if home made (though not 1.4/1.3 or anything like that) and the 62.5g limit applies to commercially made black powder rocket motors like Estes. Homemade black powder motors are not allowed in TRA experimental launches at all. They don't like to be connected to fireworks in any way so they understandably have disdain for homemade black powder motors. Sugar fuel is allowed but only certain sugars are allowed (not table sugar). Even though Estes started out as a fireworks company... Edited August 25, 2015 by taiwanluthiers
Maserface Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 Don't be disheartened, you can get a type 4 magazine, ready made, for less than 500 bucks. You can use that to store your components/shells LEGALLY. You do not need a federal license to build/store/shoot homemade fireworks, so long as no state or local regulations impede you, and the whole process takes place on private land (see below) You CANNOT legally transport explosives without an ATF license. Now, there are a few other rules you must follow, mainly, distances. while you need not possess a license to manufacture (for your own enjoyment), you DO need to adhere to the distance tables in the ATF orange book. 200 feet from any roads or inhabited structures, this does not include your home. Although you might be in the legal right to build in your attached garage, or living room, it's highly discouraged. Get a pop up tent and some tables and build where you have the most room. where are you located?
Dragonflightpyro Posted August 25, 2015 Author Posted August 25, 2015 Unfortunately I live in Pennsylvania, a safe and sane state, so state laws do prohibit just about every firework. And while I don't live in the city proper, I live close enough that no one on my block has 200ft from an inhabited structure. I'm thinking this means even if I had an atf license I don't have the room for storage and PA doesn't allow fireworks anyway. I would need a permit (which I wouldn't get without a location) to fire off a 4oz gerb since all homemade fireworks are unclassified.
Bcorso85 Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 The way it sounds.... you are not going to even qualify for a type 54. You sound residential. That's a big big no no. PA has all the firework stores.... they aren't safe and sane... this crappy state of CT has sparklers. And that was a problem for the state. I'm sure I'm missing something with your state laws, because I've walked into a PA firework store. And walked out pretty happy! As far as sharing a magazine, good luck. That is even more difficult and here's why... the owner of the mag is risking his license and privelage on a stranger. and another person for that matter. All it will take for him to loose his license is if you say to a buddy.... Sure I can get you some class C cakes really cheap from the factory. I don't doubt you are an honest person. Personally I work in the firework industry. For several years now. I only have an ATF possessors license, but my shooters license is next. My boss has done this for 30+ years. Sept 11th changed it all my friend. For all of us. Hobby shells are shipped and accounted for through paperwork as 1.3....sometimes 1.1 Stars... according to the ATF are a pyrotechnic composition that needs to be stored accordingly. Paper products are different.
taiwanluthiers Posted August 26, 2015 Posted August 26, 2015 If anything loose, especially primed stars are more dangerous than finished devices because it is not protected or encased in any way. So any stray spark will set it off, and it won't be pretty. Treat them with the utmost respect.
Mumbles Posted August 26, 2015 Posted August 26, 2015 There is some good news in getting licensed for what it's worth. Once you obtain a license, there is an inclusion of being able to test the products you manufacture, purchase, or obtain. This does tend to over ride class C restrictions in most cases. Most often the biggest restrictions here come from locality. Even still, they most often only require you to inform them or occasionally apply for a display permit. There are plenty of people in the state of Pennsylvania who have obtained ATF licenses.
dagabu Posted August 27, 2015 Posted August 27, 2015 Magazine requirements etc not in question, my garage exemption in 2001 for rocket motors storage and use of homemade motors interpretation allowed my hand pressed motors under 27 CFR. There is no mention of store bough or homemade so the decision could be made by the agent. Is this still possible today? I don't know, that would be the call of the ATF. 27 CFR 555.141(a)(10)Model rocket motors that meet all of the following criteria-- (i) Consist of ammonium perchlorate composite propellant, black powder, or other similar low explosives; (ii) Contain no more than 62.5 grams of total propellant weight; and (iii) Are designed as single-use motors or as reload kits capable of reloading no more than 62.5 grams of propellant into a reusable motor casing.
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