Nickmaslo Posted July 21, 2015 Author Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) The shell shot out the mortar about 30 feet, fell to the ground and exploded. Beautiful break. (PM me for the link to video) My assumption is that the mortar (5" ID) was too big and the space between the shell and mortar walls (about 3/4") allowed the lift gasses to flow around the shell instead of lifting it. Am I correct in assuming this? Edited July 21, 2015 by Nickmaslo
TYRONEEZEKIEL Posted July 21, 2015 Posted July 21, 2015 You are absolutely correct. You had way too much clearance in that shell. Why did you try shooting it out of the 5" gun knowing thats what would happen?
Nickmaslo Posted July 21, 2015 Author Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) I realized this after the fact. I over looked the diameter by half an inch or so some how. I learned the hard way and from now on since I have been informed of the case former and end disc information by you all, I will no longer be manufacturing this size of Shell any longer or ever again. I will be employing a disc cutter to cut down the disc to 2.5" and I already have sourced a 2.5" case former than I will be using from now on. I realize my mistakes and my methodical thought process my brains usually functions on, I now understand is futile and that the degree of lethality, harm, and safety can be seriously affected by minor errors. Thank you all for your insight and experience and wisdom. I typically find the most in thr community are extremely tight lipped and I do not experience that here. Thank you guys. Never again -Nick. Edited July 21, 2015 by Nickmaslo
nater Posted July 21, 2015 Posted July 21, 2015 There is one more problem that needs to be addressed. You started with a 3" former, yet the finished shell was too big for a 4" mortar. That is a ton of build up, over an inch! Now that you have the proper case former and will cut the discs down, you need to make sure the finished shell is just under 3" OD. 2.75" - 2.8" would be fine and will allow the shell and leader to slide down under its own weight. What kind of paper, weight and size, and how many turns did you use to make the casing? You want one turn of paper for each size of shell. 3 turns of 60 or 70 lb Virgin kraft for a 3" shell is what you want. 1 turn is what wraps around the former once. The paste wrap for small shell can be thinner paper, I use 3 turns of 30 lb for a 3" shell. Last, what kind of twine did you use to spike?
Nickmaslo Posted July 21, 2015 Author Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) I use wallpaper paste soaked 8ply cotton twine. I had .007 thick , 60-70lb kraft paper "card stock" that came in W-8 1/2" X L-11" sheets (like printer paper) I cut the width down to 5" and used 3 sheets of W 5" x L 11" strip , wrapped around the former. So a total of 33" of paper wrapped around , if memory serves was about 3 - 4 turns, the case former. I didn't use an reinforced 3" lining like some people do. I put an end discs down inside the shell before I pleated and pasted the paper down toward the spollette & bottom. Then slipped another end disc over the pleated and white glued pasted paper over the spolette as well as the bottom. I secured the outside discs with 1" gummed - reinforced tape around the edges pleated over. Then marked the spiking points like the face of a clock. 12 oclock, 3 oclock, 6 oclock, 9 oclock etc. Used a spiking horse, clove hitched the spollette and began to spike off center , then used a clove hitch to secure the spiking again. Used a plastic tube to push down the clove hitches. Let dry. Then used 3 more sheets of 5" x 10" sheets (this time 30lb builders paper) soaked and pasted with wallpaper and white glue mixture( BOTH SIDES ). Crumpled them up and let soak for a minute. Then pasted around the shell. Pleated down the edges and secured the top and bottom pleating with a disc of gum tape extended about an inch over the diameter of the shell and pressed down. Let dry. Then I just added the jersey (lift cup) and skirting to secure it with another skirt of pasted 1 turn of 30lb paper. Thats to the T up until the leader, bucket and fusing. Edited July 21, 2015 by Nickmaslo
Nickmaslo Posted July 21, 2015 Author Posted July 21, 2015 Oh and the spollette was charged and rammed with 1 1/4" of BP and it ended up being a 5sec timer. Instead of the 3.5 I was aiming for.
TYRONEEZEKIEL Posted July 21, 2015 Posted July 21, 2015 By never again do you mean that you will not continue to build shells, or just not that particular 'off size' shell? You have shown a pretty substantial interest and commitment. Im not so sure giving up would be the best route here. Just go through it step by step!
Nickmaslo Posted July 21, 2015 Author Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) No , not giving up just a little knocked down. There's no one to learn from , I'm a mentor me, hands on kind of learner usually. I learned everything on my own , by myself from books, .pdfs, forums. I have never been to a convention, workshop, or shoot of any kind. I have never met another pyro like me and just sucks. When I said never again, I meant as in that size shell - and never again test firing it in my front yard. I put a lot of people in harms way because of my errors and luckily nothing and no one was damaged or hurt. It's a little disappointing that such a stupid small error got in the way of something beautiful. All my anticipation and excitement blew up with the break when it hit the ground.. didn't even fly over 25 feet. Just thought I did it right that's all. Nothing left to do but start over. Do it right. I want to enhance and be a valued addition to fireworking in as a whole. Not a detriment. I truly believe this is going to be my life's work. Edited July 21, 2015 by Nickmaslo
TYRONEEZEKIEL Posted July 21, 2015 Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) I learned the same way. I did pyro for 6 years before I went to any shoot, convention, or met with another builder. It was all the same way you were doing it. PM me and I will be happy to help you through getting a proper shell built. Edited July 21, 2015 by TYRONEEZEKIEL
nater Posted July 21, 2015 Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) Please read through the steps in the Fulcanelli Papers again a few times and make sure you fully understand them. It looks like you took a some liberty with them, especially with the materials you used. If you follow the steps exactly as written and with the supplies mentioned, you should have a successful shell. 70lb kraft is not the same thing as cardstock. A 3" shell requires 1 24" strip of 70 lb kraft to make the proper turns on a 2.5" former. If you used 30" of cardstock, this is where you likely had the excess buildup. If you don't have good Virgin kraft paper, look for the tutorial from Mark in the Member Tutorial section. He has been sharing some techniques gained from the Maltese who use poster board and recycled paper to make shell casings. Your paste wrap is also more layers than needed. Again, refer to the tables in your text, 1 24" strip of 30 lb kraft for 3 layers. All the gummed tape is not needed as well. The spiking holds the discs in place. However, if it makes it easier for you, I do not think it contributed to the shell building up so large. For your spolette,are you using commercial powder or your own? If using your own it is important to test the burn several times and adjust the length of the spolette for your desired timing. The charts do recommend a 1" - 1 1/4" timing for a 3" shell, assuming you are using commercial Meal-d or a powder with similar speed. Please don't be discouraged. It appears you have the basic steps down. If you can get the same supplies listed in Fulcanelli, it will be very easy to get a shell in the air. If you must work with what you have, you can develop a technique to make it work, but it could take more trial and error and make it more difficult to offer help since most of us are using different materials. Edited July 21, 2015 by nater
Mumbles Posted July 21, 2015 Posted July 21, 2015 The construction itself sounds fine. I'm still unclear how it got so much buildup. I'm sure we can help you figure it out though. The lengths of paper are about right when you consider that it's a true 3" former. I'm with Nater on the cardstock paper however. Even recycled paper can work in a pinch. Just a note of clarification. The pasted patch on the bottom of the lift cup isn't called a jersey, though this method of confining the lift is called a "New Jersey" finish. As far as I know it's just called a patch. I'm growing increasingly fond of this finishing method. If you want to get fancy, the pasted band of paper around the shell at the end can sometimes be decorative, using gift wrap, newspaper, or hand drawn artwork.
Nickmaslo Posted July 21, 2015 Author Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) I really appreciate the support and kind words guys , I know that this a really percise craft and it covers everything from chemistry, science, physics, mathematics and engineering. I expected it to work flawlessly and I believe that why I'm disappointed, because of my own expectations of my self. (Thanks Ezekiel) Anyways, as to the technique, Nater - I made my own meal d using pine , over night milled charcoal. It's the usual 75/15/10/+5 mixture. The rest of the chems are sourced from HCS. I marked my rammer every 1/2 inch. I stopped at 1 1/2". I shook out excess and drilled a less than 1/4 hole into the center. Followed Fulcanelli to the T as well as had Neds 3" Shell How-To to follow along with on the spollette. The cardstock is kraft, same grain and I brought my digital readout caliper and Fulcanellis Manuscript with me to the craft store to measure the thickness and made sure it's what I needed. It is Kraft brand and it seems to just be sheets instead of rolls. I water/paste tested it to make sure it would hold like fulcanelli advised and it was fine. I do believe the excess 10" cause a lot of building on the original shell wall AND the excess turns on the pasting post-spiking did also contribute but bear in mind I found out after the fact back on page 1 of this thread that my end discs and formers are 1/2" too big in diameter for a 3" shell. I started with a 3" former and a 3" end disc so the majority of the miscalculations stemmed there I think. I will be cutting down the turns and on top of using the right diameter former and end discs in the first place . There's a first time for everything I suppose, I will be reading fulcanelli again tonight an I will be making another one ASAP and posting that one as well. (Need to pump more stars) Just ordered a 1 year subscription to fireworking.com as well after talked to Ned through email. Hope to learn a lot more in the coming attempts and projects Edited July 21, 2015 by Nickmaslo
nater Posted July 21, 2015 Posted July 21, 2015 I thought the patch finish was called the "New Jersey" finish and it is a nicer alternative to tying the lift wrap closed. In any case, I do like the nice flat bottom. I have been thinking about using a fancy decorative wrap and labels for my shells. When you spend so many hours building a shell, it is neat to make them look as nice as possible before they go up too.
TYRONEEZEKIEL Posted July 21, 2015 Posted July 21, 2015 Nick, getting a fireworking subscription was definitely the most helpful step you could make. The information there is unbelievable. As for the New Jersey or Skirt finish. Its definitely a matter of taste. I prefer the look of the tied bottom shells vs a skirt finish. I also prefer how it leaves less debris in the mortar than with the skirt finish. If you are interested, I would be happy to send you a kit to make one of the 3" color to report shells outlined in fulcanelli. I have the tube and discs. You do not even need a former when building this shell, as you roll the shell casing ontop of the bottom shot. This is the identical kit that ned uses in his video so you could follow along step by step. Although Ned takes a few extra steps, it is a great tutorial.
Nickmaslo Posted July 21, 2015 Author Posted July 21, 2015 I am going to look into this wrapping style to make it look nice. It was my first shell, I learn at an extreme pace, some people consider it a savant pace but I don't know. My brain just is wired different. Like most of us pyro I assume. I believe my second attempt which I will begin tonight will be 10x better, 10x more accurste and better. I have a " feel " for it now. I PMED you Ezekiel, I would love to talk further with you and get to reach out to someone in this community. You have my cell and email. Also,
coogan1997 Posted July 22, 2015 Posted July 22, 2015 My assumption is that the mortar (5" ID) was too big and the space between the shell and mortar walls (about 3/4") allowed the lift gasses to flow around the shell instead of lifting it. Am I correct in assuming this?Wait I'm confused now! So you made a 3" id shell and shot it out a 5" mortar?
Nickmaslo Posted July 22, 2015 Author Posted July 22, 2015 (edited) Wait I'm confused now! So you made a 3" id shell and shot it out a 5" mortar?In a nut shell - yes. In reality - the circumstances leading up to this were very extra-ordinary. If you read the thread , the 3" shell I made I started incorrectly with a 3" case former and end disc rather than a 2.5" former and end disc. I assumed prior to all this that a 3" shell, had a 3" end disc, so when I received the end disc in the mail, I used those a reference for my shell size and case former size. SO Ultimately, with a case former and end disc, 1/2" bigger than what it should be, and excess skirting, kraft paper, and excess paper used when pasting in - the shell actually ended up being a 4" shell. The closest thing I had to a 4" shell was either a 4" mortar, or a 5" mortar.. and since it wouldnt fit in the 4" mortar. Yes I shot it out of the 5" mortar. There was about 1/2" - 3/4" of space between the mortar walls and shell. Ultimately, I learned MUCH more than I thought I would after the construction and firing of my first italo-american shell then I thought I would Edited July 22, 2015 by Nickmaslo
TYRONEEZEKIEL Posted July 22, 2015 Posted July 22, 2015 Nick, I tried calling you a couple of times yesterday and each case took me straight to voice mail.
Nickmaslo Posted July 22, 2015 Author Posted July 22, 2015 Truly sorry Tyrone, I was on the forum ALL day at work yesterday during this whole fiasco, phone died before I left my office. Please call me today, I work at a credit correction / debt dispute law firm during the day and I should typically be out around 6pm tonight. (EST) Since my phone was off it didn't save an incoming call. Looking forward to it.
DaMounty Posted July 22, 2015 Posted July 22, 2015 Nick, getting a fireworking subscription was definitely the most helpful step you could make. The information there is unbelievable. As for the New Jersey or Skirt finish. Its definitely a matter of taste. I prefer the look of the tied bottom shells vs a skirt finish. I also prefer how it leaves less debris in the mortar than with the skirt finish. If you are interested, I would be happy to send you a kit to make one of the 3" color to report shells outlined in fulcanelli. I have the tube and discs. You do not even need a former when building this shell, as you roll the shell casing ontop of the bottom shot. This is the identical kit that ned uses in his video so you could follow along step by step. Although Ned takes a few extra steps, it is a great tutorial. Is the fireworking forum really that good? Debating on subscribing.
TYRONEEZEKIEL Posted July 22, 2015 Posted July 22, 2015 Fireworking forum is absolutely the BEST resource available for firework manufacturing. APC is a great forum for getting started and teaching, but it is a free site, so we see so many k3wlz here. The 'pay to play' aspect weeds out all the 12 year olds who 'wanna blow stuff up.' If you want to fly where the eagles soar, get an FW sub. I will say that getting a sub to passfire is equally valuable for the content there. The forum is dead but the articles there are vastly more extensive than fireworking.
Nickmaslo Posted July 22, 2015 Author Posted July 22, 2015 Yeah I was PMing with Screentopper , Jeff from pyrocreations.com , and he told me to reach out to Ned and tell him that I was referred by him. At first I was like, oh my god, star struck because Ned is like my idol in Fireworking. Him and I actually spoke! Back and forth through email like 10 times, it was amazing to get to speak to him a little. I subscribed yesterday and am about to post my first topic under the star section. I have gotten more for my 40$ there in one day than I have in the entire researching time under my belt prior to my subscription. I am on FW.com now as well, but never am I leaving APC. I will be active on both forums from now on.
TYRONEEZEKIEL Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 Good. There are bits of creative info that get shared here that never make it to fw. Keep both and enjoy both!
gregh Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 I love Fireworking too, but like you said, there are jewels here that you don't get over there. (like Mumbles coming unglued on people... ) 1
pyrokid Posted July 23, 2015 Posted July 23, 2015 I feel that there are ways besides a $40 paywall to eliminate kewls. I resent being asked to pay to participate in a discussion forum.
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