Mumbles Posted July 7, 2015 Posted July 7, 2015 Xanthan gum and guar gum are not the same, nor are they similar to red gum. Xanthan gum or guar gum are basically gelling agents or additives to increase viscosity. They're probably most similar to CMC, which is most commonly used in making blackmatch slurries which stay suspended better.
DaMounty Posted July 7, 2015 Author Posted July 7, 2015 Figured as much. On the hunt for chems to make colored stars. Using Robert Veline's compositions. Able to get everything in Canada except parlon, red gum and potassium dichromate. I'm sure that shipping both Parlon and red gum is no issue. It's just the cost. The hunt continues DaM
Mumbles Posted July 7, 2015 Posted July 7, 2015 There are some potential substitutes. Parlon is a chlorine donor primarily, though also used as a binder in certain instances. Powdered PVC or CPVC are options, and are used in injection molding sometimes. They are not as suited toward the binding applications though. This may be one potential place to look. Parlon itself is used in sealants and paints, particularly waterproof ones, though I've never really heard of people finding it from these sources. Parlon is chlorinated rubber, so using that more generic term might be helpful. Other brand names are Chlororub and Pergut. Red gum is an organic fuel. There are a lot of options out there. They're not all going to be interchangeable or 1:1 substitutes. Powdered shellac is an option. Phenolic resin as Nater suggested is also good. One common one in the US has been vinsol. In some instances you can use lactose or hexamine, though that is starting to get a little away from the ideal material. 1
Mumbles Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 I love saran, just don't know of any industries or non-pyro sources to obtain it. The stuff they use to make cling films and the like is a very chunky material. The fine stuff we use is a by-product I've been told.
WSM Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 There are some potential substitutes. Parlon is a chlorine donor primarily, though also used as a binder in certain instances. Powdered PVC or CPVC are options, and are used in injection molding sometimes. They are not as suited toward the binding applications though. This may be one potential place to look. Parlon itself is used in sealants and paints, particularly waterproof ones, though I've never really heard of people finding it from these sources. Parlon is chlorinated rubber, so using that more generic term might be helpful. Other brand names are Chlororub and Pergut. Red gum is an organic fuel. There are a lot of options out there. They're not all going to be interchangeable or 1:1 substitutes. Powdered shellac is an option. Phenolic resin as Nater suggested is also good. One common one in the US has been vinsol. In some instances you can use lactose or hexamine, though that is starting to get a little away from the ideal material. Good suggestions. For chlorinated rubber (Parlon), look for paint manufacturing suppliers (usually in major industrial areas). Years ago I found one in the Western US and bought a very fine grade of chlorinated rubber from Japan in 20 Kilo bags. It was wonderful stuff and we used a lot of it till the source dried up. It's out there; keep hunting By the way, binding with Parlon is a messy proposition at best. At worst it'll make a Royal mess of things. I suggest sticking to more traditional binders. WSM
taiwanluthiers Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 Binding with parlon isn't bad, in fact I have done it. The key is to not use too much acetone. Also make sure the stuff is actually parlon and not chlorowax (they look similar but have different texture when wet with acetone). Chlorowax is denser than parlon, and gets very sticky when dissolved in acetone. Parlon is very fluffy and is still sticky when wet with acetone, but it's not quite as sticky as chlorowax and will work with cut stars if you don't add too much acetone to it. As far as effectiveness as chlorine donor and fuel value there doesn't seem to be a noticeable difference. 1
TYRONEEZEKIEL Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 If you have the means, abandon parlon altogether with unless you want to bind with acetone and use cut stars. Otherwise, replace parlon with saran. Your whole life will be better because of it. Saran is endlessly better than parlon. Parlon is such a pain to use. 1
pyrokid Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 What are the properties of saran that make it better than parlon? I am running low! What ratio of saran does one use to replace parlon? I can vouch for the quality of vinsol. I use it as a 1:1 substitute for red gum, with no change in burn characteristics. It smells nice too. 1
DaMounty Posted July 8, 2015 Author Posted July 8, 2015 Anyone up to trading for some vinsol and saran powder? or a combination of trade plus money? At the moment I have qty. 24 - 4.5" dia. hemis and rice hulls. I have not weighed the rice hulls yet, and can get my hands on more 4.5" hemis Let me know - Sourcing these two items locally is proving to be a thorn in my arse DaM
nater Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 Start with a 1:1 replacement for saran to parlon. Parlon tends to add an orange tip to the flame front. If it is not well screened, larger chunks add an orange tail. It is not dense enough to be an effect, so I find it distracting. Saran burns cleaner for more pure colors and does not add a distracting effect. On the flip side, acetone bound parlon stars can be made and fired the same day and are water resistsnt. Pick the properties that are most desirable for the effect you want. 1
DaMounty Posted July 8, 2015 Author Posted July 8, 2015 Doing a little research vinsol is also known as dark rosin. Dark rosin is used for violin strings??? Anyone out there every try out violin rosin? look under every stone, follow every lead. DaM
Mumbles Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 In my experience they behave a little differently. To the best of my knowledge, Vinsol is a trademarked material and is made from a certain tree in a certain part of the US. Rosin, or colophony as you may see it called in pyrotechnic compositions, are a little more generic of terms. I'd imagine that tree source and location, as well as any blending or mixing of sources, would affect the final product. I've used vinsol several times, but have relatively limited experience with colophony. Colophony seemed a little stickier and more pungent. Both are options if you can get your hands on either. You could try looking for rosin bags, like the ones used in baseball. This synthetic rosin is chlorinated paraffin, and could be used as a potential chlorine donor. http://shop.chemicalstore.com/navigation/detail.asp?MySessionID=189-709383445&id=MPROSIN# The natural powdered stuff they offer is indeed rosin, but has magnesium carbonate in it as an anti-cake. Vinegar might be able to remove it I suppose. Otherwise, you might try your luck with powdering the lump stuff. You have to be careful to keep it from getting too hot, and fusing back together.
DaMounty Posted July 8, 2015 Author Posted July 8, 2015 I did read that today about the "sport" rosin. Also used on ballet shoes? Go figure. I think I may just bite the bullet and order both Saran and vinsol, and pay the Gustapo like shipping prices. But my research has me looking/reading many different articles. I'll be a treasure trove of Cliff Claven tidbits. Once I have a handle on making coloured stars with proper chems, I will begin experimenting with different variations of similar product. DaM
coogan1997 Posted July 9, 2015 Posted July 9, 2015 Phenolic resin is a great substitute for red gum.Where does one get Phenolic resin from? I haven't been able to find it anywhere. Also could i substitute sulfur for red gum in the Independence red star comp?
Mumbles Posted July 9, 2015 Posted July 9, 2015 A lot of people have recently been getting it from Jim Widmann. http://ctpyro.com/8.html Not sure how shipping to Puerto Rico would work. As far as the sulfur for red gum, it's worth a shot. I feel that it is of the most use in perchlorate oxidized organic stars. It helps to liberate chlorine from the perchlorate while burning. This gives rise to potassium sulfides and sulfates, instead of potassium chloride ultimately. This is essence overcomes one of the limitations of perchlorates vs. chlorates.
Richtee Posted July 9, 2015 Posted July 9, 2015 Hey Mounty... about the time I was...err..convinced into early retirement from pyro I was playing with jack pine sap balls. I recall it was pretty "fuel-ish" and I think you know what it sticks like Was dissolving it in acetone and straining/filtering it. Just a thought.
DaMounty Posted July 9, 2015 Author Posted July 9, 2015 I actually thought of going into the back yard and tapping a tree. still may do that
Arthur Posted July 9, 2015 Posted July 9, 2015 I've heard of some stars simply being pressed just powder no binder. It uses a lot of pressure bit may remove the need for one chemical. PVC as used for injection moulding or extrusion should before compounding be somewhat similar to parlon or Saran (no NOT exactly the same) and may still suit "rubber stars" production with acetone.
DaMounty Posted July 9, 2015 Author Posted July 9, 2015 Looking at the Veline star compositions, I am not sure what the role of the red gum is, as it has dextrin in there as well. I assumed the dextrin was the binder.
Mumbles Posted July 9, 2015 Posted July 9, 2015 In the Veline compositions, dextrin is the binder, red gum is a fuel, and parlon is a chlorine donor. I've read about pressing compositions dry. From what I've seen, for this to be fully successful, certain materials need to be included in the composition. They need to be thermoplastic or baroplastic (???) materials that will flow under the pressing conditions to bind everything together. The information was from Lloyd Sponnenburgh I believe. Some searching might find more details. I seem to recall red gum being good for this though.
Arthur Posted July 9, 2015 Posted July 9, 2015 Most pharmaceutical and recreational drug tablets are simply pressed -sometimes they add cornflour or starch to mixes for tableting. Any ebay search for "Tablet Press" will show you the machine. There is certaainly one prox pyro firm in the UK using a tablet press to make millions of small identical stars.
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