Wiley Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 I recently purchased the items I need to make 3" cylinder shells, and I had a question about what I should be using for lift. Currently, I make 3FA (granulated through an 8 mesh and retained on a 12), but I'm concerned that this might be a little fast for a multi. Would 4-8 mesh 2FA be better suited for this application? I'm not quite sure what a 3" three-break will weigh, but I'm guessing that it will be about 2-3 pounds. Probably more like 3 if it's a draw-out, and I know I will be making those. The mortars I ordered are standard HDPE, 18" long, and my powder is pretty hot, so I think I may be able to use the ounce-per-pound rule to lift these. I know that worked for a couple of the 2.5" shells I made, but those were lifted with 3FA. However, I would guess that a heavier, larger 3" shell would make even more efficient use of the lift. What has your experience been in this area?
TYRONEEZEKIEL Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 use your lift. It will be fine. I think at that size HDPE may still work for a gun. Mine handles 2 breaks just fine. Ive never built a 3 break shell. Id build one and bury the gun to test it.
Wiley Posted June 17, 2015 Author Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) I think it has a good chance. Psyco has shot quite a few big nasty things out of 4" HDPE, so assuming that a 3" is constructed similarly, it should hold up fine. What did you use to lift that beautiful color-to-report you posted on here? Also, did you use straight 70:30 in that bottom shot, or was it bulked with filler like Ned does? I like loud reports, but I don't care for high-pitched ones. That's how my 2.5" color-to-reports came out; not too loud, just too piercing for my taste. I've since switched to 7:3:1, but have yet to fire a shell with it. It's supposed to be easier on the ears. Edited June 17, 2015 by Wiley
nater Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 For what it is worth, I use 4-12 mesh BP for lift. I am for something comparable in speed to commercial powder, or use a supply of Goex when I can get it. I do use the 1 oz per pound rule. The people I have been learning from tell me that works until you get to larger shells >6" or so and then they back off the lift. Their advice still comes close to the 1 oz per pound for the first 10 lbs, then 0.5-0.75 oz per pound after that. I have not made a 3 break yet either, but I hope to make one soon. I'm curious at what point standard HDPE mortars are no longer strong enough. I have a 24" long 3" steel mortar as well as standard length steel mortars through 6". I also have a set of fiberglass mortars which I want to reinforce with more layers of fiberglass cloth and epoxy, but that project has been on my back burner.
Mumbles Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 I do reserve my steel guns for when I absolutely need them or I at least have some questions. If I am not using steel, I tend to seek out fiberglass. I like the one piece construction better for heavier shells than HDPE, despite an overall preference for HDPE in general. A friend of mine told me that he fires anything under 10lbs out of fiberglass. I've done this before when steel is scarce at club shoots with full success. Definitely a lot lighter to lug around too. Even still, I bury all my guns for this sort of thing. 3" is a sort of unique size. They're pretty light. It's basically the only size I feel comfortable firing anything over two breaks without absolutely needing a bottom shot or at least a final comet break. I've put up 5-break 3" shells before of just colors and small inserts. Maybe I've just gotten lucky though. While I have 3" steel guns, I don't think I've ever used them, though do have some plans for them. Your lift will be fine. I wouldn't worry about destroying them if you're building them well. If it seems too violent or loud, you can certainly back off the amount or use a larger grain size. 8-12 is still the lower half of 2FA anyway. These shells don't get very heavy. You should be fine in whatever guns you have. I generally expect around 200g per break. So depending on what you use for the casings of your bottom shots, you should be right around 2lbs I suspect for a 3-break. I think that 5-break I mentioned was right around 3lbs.
Wiley Posted June 18, 2015 Author Posted June 18, 2015 Thanks for the replies guys. Mumbles, I will be using the 2" ID tubes with 1/4" walls for my bottom shot cores, and I'll cut them 1.5" long.
nater Posted June 18, 2015 Posted June 18, 2015 That is exactly what I do if I use spiral tubes for cores. Usually, I make a hand rolled bottom shot 1.5" tall and finished around a 2.5" disc. The commercial tubes have a little more space for the final effect.
Wiley Posted June 18, 2015 Author Posted June 18, 2015 I'll be fluffing my vitamin f with some bran to keep the weight, and therefore the cost/noise down. I also thought of "sawdusting in" the 1.5" OD bottom shots I make for my 1.75" shells. I'd probably only do that if I wanted a break-and-report though.
Wiley Posted July 1, 2015 Author Posted July 1, 2015 So, I built a 3" draw-out. It weighs 2 pounds and has about 1/4" of clearance in a standard, 18" long HDPE gun. I went ahead and ran five 1" screws into the plug in between the staples that were already there, so the plug should be fairly secure. At 2#, the ounce-per-pound rule states that I will need 2 oz of 2FA. Does this sound about right? My 3FA is definitely not 2FA either, as you can see from this video which was also posted in Wiley's Shells: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bK1kNKjOBoA That shell weighed 280g and was lifted with 18g of 3FA. It fit the gun very well though, not at all like the 3" shells. It would just barely slide down under it's own weight, whereas the 3" shells just drop straight in with a bit of slop.
Mumbles Posted July 1, 2015 Posted July 1, 2015 Good idea with the screws. I always forget about the stapled HDPE mortars on the market since I absolutely avoid them. It will definitely give some more reinforcement. At a certain point you're limited by the stregth of the HDPE walls however. I've seen several HDPE mortars with the plug blown out, but screws still securely attached to the plug. You literally tear them right through the walls. This can be avoided by using reinforcement below the mortar. A large rock or railroad tie are common. This is an especially good idea if you'll be firing from the same gun multiple times, or are trying to bury it in soft or sandy soil.
Wiley Posted July 1, 2015 Author Posted July 1, 2015 Thanks for the reminder about providing a base for the mortar. Do you think it would be a better idea to use fiberglass, and is there a particular brand/vendor that you can recommend?
braddsn Posted July 2, 2015 Posted July 2, 2015 Wiley, my vote is for HDPE over fiberglass. IMHO, no contest. Also, if you can build a rack for your guns, that will give em the support underneath that they need.
nater Posted July 2, 2015 Posted July 2, 2015 We have blown out plugs in racked HDPE mortars as well with single and double break 5" shells. Like Mumbles said, bolted plugs are better, but the bolts can be ripped right through the walls of the mortar. Heavy shells need special consideration. I currently use buried steel mortars, but I am open for change if something better gets proven or readily available. Right now I am leaning towards reinforcing standard fiberglass mortars with additional wraps of cloth and epoxy.
jordanm Posted July 2, 2015 Posted July 2, 2015 Platte River Mortars makes some excellent HDPE mortars. They also have great customer support, 100% satisfaction guaranteed. I will defiantly be buying from them again.
Wiley Posted July 2, 2015 Author Posted July 2, 2015 (edited) How thick are the plugs? The ones I got from Pyroboom are only 1.5" thick when they should be 3". EDIT: Never mind, it looks like they are all 1.5", but it seems like they take special orders. Edited July 2, 2015 by Wiley
jordanm Posted July 2, 2015 Posted July 2, 2015 (edited) Yes i am sure he can make you any size height tube you want with however thick of plugs you want. He emails back right away but you can also call him for an immediate response.russkoeller@live.com Edited July 2, 2015 by jordanm
jordanm Posted July 2, 2015 Posted July 2, 2015 I sent Russ an email and asked if he can make some custom mortars and this is what he said: Yes, I have longer tubes available at different times. Whenever I get a new load of pipe in. Just give me the lengths and plugging dimensions and I'll see what I can do. Thanks,Russ KoellerPlatte River Mortars
MrB Posted July 4, 2015 Posted July 4, 2015 Losing out on portability, but gaining life expectancy... How about building racks, and securing the plug, and tube, to the rack sides, and bottom supports, with the screws?Not really feasible on larger mortars, since 5 of em and a rack could be... cumbersome to move about.B!
Mumbles Posted July 4, 2015 Posted July 4, 2015 Racks are great for single shells. As shells get larger and heavier, and start having multiple breaks, then I'd question their use more. I would prefer to have them buried so that the earth provides some extra support, and extra shielding in case something goes wrong.
wizard7611 Posted July 12, 2015 Posted July 12, 2015 (edited) Platte River Mortars makes some excellent HDPE mortars. They also have great customer support, 100% satisfaction guaranteed. I will defiantly be buying from them again.Lmao, it's Platte River Fireworks(PlatteRiverFireworks.com), not Platte River Mortars. Russ is a pretty nice guy. I have been buying tubes from him for two years now. I'd hate to deal with the people from MortarRack.com. Anyway, Wiley, you're better off using HDPE for safety concerns and burying the mortar tube in the ground for the force of the lift to be absorbed. As long as it's not soft soil, you should be fine. Edited July 12, 2015 by wizard7611
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