What went wrong?

[BeverFever]

After reading all beginner info that I could, I progressed though making black powder,a gerb, a star gun, and finally a 1.75" can shell. Unfortunantly the shell didn't go more then 30 feet into the air, but at least my stars, quick match, burst, and top mounted spolette all worked great! So what do you think I did wrong so I may correct it?

 

Black powder was made with stump remover, garden dusting sulfer (10% inert), and wood from heat treated pallets, that I think are pine. It's a lighter yellow wood. I also assume it is heat treated because of the HT stamp.

 

This was ball milled in a 6lb Harbor Freight rock tumbler with 200, .45 cal lead balls. 75/15/10 was then milled for 4-6 hours. Al ingredients were powder going in. Talc like coming out and burn with a quick poof.

 

Then I added 5% homemade dextrin, dampened the powder. Then I got it way to wet, so I added more powder until It was a good consistency for granulating though a kitchen screen. I let let the powder dry overnight and it formed a rock hard granule that I couldn't smash without really trying.

 

My shell weighed 150g so I added 15g of lift.

The shell fit snug in the tube.

What went wrong? Not enough lift? Black powder not hot enough?

 

I'll add a video and picture of the shell. I shot it off on a beach at low tide in the wash zone. I was happy I did.

[calebkessinger]

Black powder not hot enough. Happens to almost everyone unless they are working under someone elses supervision.

No worries.. Start reading on the ball milling threads.. making your own eastern red cedar charcoal.. getting the perfect mill load and media for your jars. and drying the powder as fast as possible.. in the sun during the heat of the day.

Edited June 13, 2015 by calebkessinger

[gregh]

I had a shell only go 30ft once because I was impatient and used BP that wasn't fully dried. Luckily it was only a 2.5". I still watch the video of it occasionally for a good laugh!

[clarkie752]

Sounds like my first shell too. It went about 50 feet up came down in the snow and made a pitiful pop. Mine was also a 2.5 inch. Then I bought a 6 pound harbor freight mill. Lots of fun though.

[BeverFever]

Well I put a 140g batch back into the mill (had been in the mill for about 5 hours already). I'm going to let it run for much longer. I did notice that that batch I put back into the mill was already faster then the lift powder, so I hope I'll get decent lift from this. I think I'm going to make a 3" can shell next. I've read larger shells are easier to get up into the air. Is this true? Should I use a 2.5" former?

 

How can i test my black powder? Are dummy shells the only good method?

 

Lastly I'm ordering this aluminum for N1 glitter. http://www.hobbychemicalsupply.com/atomized-aluminum-alcoa-120-glitter-aluminum/?page_context=search&faceted_search=0

Would this work or should I go for all one mesh size? And could I use a PVC pipe and a dowel to make pressed TT and N1? What size would be recommended for a 3" shell?

 

Thanks!

[mikeee]

Bever,

 

You can shoot a baseball or tennis ball out of a mortar and count how long of flight you get.

You shouldn't have to mill your BP for more then 4-5 hours with the HF ball mill.

Eastern Red Cedar wood chips animal bedding makes good charcoal for hot BP.

Skylighter has a large selection of chemicals and a fireworks tutorial ebook for various projects.

[BeverFever]

So do you think it could be the charcoal? Wouldn't animal bedding become expensive. The pallets I have access to are free. And I think they are pine.

[mikeee]

Eastern Red Cedar chips makes high quality charcoal for rocket fuels and lift charges.

It is easily converted to charcoal using a TLUD cooker, which is also easy to build one.

If the pallets are made of pine the charcoal would be good for stars (lots of sparks).

Many pallets are made from different woods depending on the region of the country you are in.

[calebkessinger]

If you get your process down pat it will probably make serviceable powder.

[BeverFever]

Well I milled it all day and it turned to to a caked rock. Tested it and it's much faster! I'll post two videos of before and after and if you think it will make good lift I'll continue. I really prefer to use the free palates because I want to spend my spare money on colored stars soon. It's going to be nearly $80 for red and blue parlon stars 😓. By the looks of my 2" shell that popped on the ground this charcoal makes great TT! I live in Florida and my boss said he thought it was pine. We have pine trees everywhere.

 

The BP seems pretty aggressive now, but I though that before I milled it again (no experience) so please give me some advise. Btw I lit a very short fuse that's why it was slow at first.

 

Do you think I could get it faster. It was a hard cake when I pulled it out. I could break it up and mill again.

Edited June 14, 2015 by BeverFever

[BeverFever]

Here it is in a line. And also a slow mo for fun!

[Arthur]

Remember that is isn't free to sit in hospital with burns, start with is it good, better or best, get the compounds right then learn to afford them.

A 3" shell should cost me no more than £4 (say about $6) in total. Yes I have seen shells fall back to the ground then burst, spreading hot stars for a 100m radius.

 

Rule No 1 of fireworking is work safe, rule 2 is use the right powder.

[GMetcalf]

Your Black Powder tests (the ones in post #11) look fast. I would expect you to be able to lift shells with this powder so I'm thinking the reason the granulated finished product is a bit slow is because it's not completely dry. Maybe try drying it for a few days rather than overnight?

 

 

get the compounds right then learn to afford them.

 

 

I agree with Arthur here, if it's the first time you're making something then spend all the required money to do it by the book. Once you know all the ins and outs then you can start to experimentally swap stuff out to meet your cost requirements. For example I don't paste my shells with Kraft paper, I use newspaper to do it now. But before I could even make a guess as to how many more layers etc I would need, I had to make many shells using the more expensive virgin Kraft.

[DaMounty]

I had the same thing happen to me last night. It boiled down to the shell not being at the bottom of the mortar.

 

DaM

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pt60uNHhiig

[BeverFever]

Remember that is isn't free to sit in hospital with burns, start with is it good, better or best, get the compounds right then learn to afford them.

A 3" shell should cost me no more than £4 (say about $6) in total. Yes I have seen shells fall back to the ground then burst, spreading hot stars for a 100m radius.

 

Rule No 1 of fireworking is work safe, rule 2 is use the right powder.

I'm kind of confused by what you are trying to tell me. Did you even read any of my posts?

 

All the ingredients I used were recommendations off of this forum. Dusting sulfur, stump remover KNO3, and pine wood pallets for charcoal. Made charcoal as Ned Gorski advised, used a very accurate "drug scale" (idk what else to call it, 0.00 accuracy). Balled milled with lead shot and HF rock tumble, all witch were reccommened on this forum (mostly by Mumbles, I really only trust his posts). I even fired my shell off in the wash zone of a beach for added safety.

 

Oh, and I also used a ball mill bunker and a extension. I'm doing things by the book besides 100% pure chems. I think the sulfur is the only 10% inert chem too.

 

Odd post.

Edited June 14, 2015 by BeverFever

[calebkessinger]

I would start with charcoal stars if you are worried about expense, much cheaper to learn with. that pine will make great tails, you can practice cutting stars and getting them nice and dry..

 

Sounds like you will be getting it all figured out soon..

 

One suggestion.. change out your milling media with some hard stuff.. It does make a difference. I have a listing on ebay for them. and sell them out of my store. Cheap and easy improvement. We have all struggled with poor powder before, some of the big boys have even had trouble with it and not realized it...

 

Good luck and stay safe !!

[nater]

Where I live, animal bedding is a cheap source for wood to make charcoal from. Like Mikee said, pallets here are usually pine which does not make hot charcoal.

 

It sounds like your process is just fine, so if your latest batch is too slow you have a few options.

 

1. You can switch to using charcoal which makes hotter powder. Eastern Red Cedar, Red Alder, Palownia, Willow and Balsa are all known to make really hot powder.

 

2. For lift, you can use more powder to compensate for the lower power. For burst, you can add whistle or "slow" flash as a burst enhancer. Both of these will take some testing to get the amounts just right.

[BeverFever]

Yes I agree about charcoal stars. I just ordered some HDPE tubes and some mixed mesh size aluminum for N1 glitter. I'm going to experiment with star size and shell until I get consistent results then I'll go for some parlon stars.

 

I was thinking about getting SS balls and replacing the HF rubber jar with a PVC jar for a harder surface to mill on. I had read dagabu say that it reduces milling time.

 

I read about "pyro golf" for testing BP. Is this a safe practice? It safe to use a PVC pipe as a launch tube. I thought that was a no no. Or would it be fine because the golf ball won't explode in the tube.

[nater]

Not that there is anything wrong with Pyro golf, but a baseball will be easier to track in the sky and find on the ground. Baseballs fit nicely in a 3" mortar and weigh close to a 3" ball shell too.

 

Generally PVC should be avoided as a mortar. I have seen it used for star guns, comets and other things without a break charge. It is kind of a grey area. I would not say it is unsafe for a non-breaking effect, but I would not use it either. I like to keep good habits across the board, so I just avoid using PVC except for rocket launch tubes. That way there is no temptation or possibility to accidently use it for a breaking shell.

[BeverFever]

Yes. Why risk it. I'll just wait for my 3" HDPE tube. I have to wait that long for my lift to dry correctly anyway.

[calebkessinger]

I'm done with PVC all together even for rocket launch tubes.. We are tempted to stand close to a rocket launch ( say 40-50') thinking a cato will just be paper and some wood.. The last two whistle cato's I had sent pvc tube through my outdoor movie screen that was beside it showing me I'm not as smart as I think I am and was putting myself at risk.. NO MORE !!

 

"take that long for my lift to dry properly"

 

uh.... I have Never gotten good lift with granulated powder dried slowly. If it's not dry in a couple hours it's just ok, not great.

 

It's great to see you building stuff !!! Have fun and stay safe..

[GMetcalf]

PVC is safe if there is no risk of whatever is in the tube exploding whilst in said tube. This does rule out shells of any form but it also depends on the size/weight of your comet as to whether these are also ok. I know in practice this would be hard to achieve but a heavy enough comet will cause the pressure to build underneath it faster than it can leave the tube and hence cause it to shatter. I expect some people will have had this experience with large shells such as 3+ breaks, where the weight of the shell requires a large lift charge and that can smash the mortar.

 

It sounds like your lift using the 'pine' (or whatever wood it is) is hot enough, just needs more drying. So give it another pop and let us know how it goes! In terms of the jar though, you might get a faster mill time with a PVC jar but if it explodes while milling (and this can happen) then PVC is one of the last materials you want the jar to be made of. In my opinion just mill in the rubber jar for that extra bit of time to achieve the same result.

[BeverFever]

Here is the wood I'm using. I'm making another batch today. In a 5 gallon bucket.

 

My black powder keeps clumping up in my mill! I live in Florida and we have high humidity and today is about 90 degrees. Could moisture be causing this or do you think I should consider it done? I broke it up and it reclumped when I checked two hours later.

 

When I granulate my powder I will put in on a window screen in a dehydrator. (Outside of course!) that should dry is quick. It dried my TT really fast. What percent of water by weight should I add? I can't find that info anywhere! I over wetted it last time.

 

 

It's great having such fast and informed responses. Thanks!

Edited June 14, 2015 by BeverFever

[calebkessinger]

clumping in the mill has been blamed mostly on moisture.. some people dry their stuff before milling it..

 

With that humidity it would be darned hard to get powder to dry quickly without a nice warm drying box.. The dehydrator might do it setting in a nice warm spot.. over wetting is never good for the powder either.

 

Just a thought.

 

A lot of people like using rubbing alcohol to granulate powder. It helps it dry nicely and makes the powder a little hotter.

 

oh... practice will tell you how much water to add.

[BeverFever]

Well I do have a space heater and a tub to make a drying box!

This is quite a lot of fun and I have only made one shell. The process is great!

So do you think my humidity will weaken my powder?

And what's your take on the wood I posted pictures of?