Eagle66 Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 I was thinking of trying to make black match/quick match with KClO4 instead of KNO3. My research has been a bust. Has anyone here done this, or maybe has some information or references I could look up?
TYRONEEZEKIEL Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 That seems incredibly more expensive than it needs to be. Is there any reason BP based fuses wont cut it?
GMetcalf Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 Well you can simply make Black Powder with the same proportions but swapping the Potassium Nitrate for Potassium Perchlorate BUT you shouldn't mill or grind it at all and it will be rather a bit more sensitive given the Potassium Chlorate impurity your Potassium Perchlorate is likely to contain. So screen the powder together using a 40ish mesh screen and then make into slurry for Black Match as usual. My only thought for why you'd want a Perchlorate based match is maybe for igniting a hard to ignite composition? If this is the case (and this is purely conjecture on my part mind you) I would simply make normal Black Powder match but with maybe 5-10% added flake Aluminium powder. In this case you'd also add 2% Boric Acid to the solution for making the slurry. Another alternative you might want to try is a mixture of Potassium Perchlorate and Red Gum (I think 70:30 is suitable) and dissolved in alcohol to make a slurry... But as TYRONEEZEKIEL pointed out, this is unnecessarily expensive!
nater Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 I am not a big fan of perchlorate based black match There is some available commercially and it burns on the violent side. Some have reported problems passing fire because of the way it burns. I don't like the sound of it. When you are used to hearing the snap of a BP based QM leader followed by the lift, the bang of a perc based leader is startling. As a shooter, you learn react to abnormal sounds as a malfunctioning shell. Imagine how I felt when I lit a 5" shell with a perc based leader which was crimped around the lift charge. I lit the fuse, 1 ---- 2 ----- BANG! - - no thump? Time to hit the deck! No thanks, I would stick to making black match from BP 1
Eagle66 Posted June 11, 2015 Author Posted June 11, 2015 No particular or unusual need. I was reading about using quick fuse as a leader. Well, the stuff I've been using as a leader is labeled "Fast Fuse", with sort of a tissue paper wrap over a couple of strands of gray match. It works pretty well, thought not as fast as quick match. I've been thinking ahead to when it's gone, so I figured I'd ask around first instead of just throwing some stuff in a bowl and see what happens.
GreginCA Posted June 11, 2015 Posted June 11, 2015 Try taking some 30lb kraft paper, roll a 1/4" to 3/8" diameter tube and pipe your existing fuse through the tube. Instant improvised quickmatch... I have nothing nice to say about the perchlorate based fuse out there, especially the "Perchlorate Quickmatch" being sold out there... It knocks off rising effects, blows timing chains to shreds, leaves all kinds of smoldering debris and has even been known to destroy smaller shells de to it's explosive/energetic properties... After personally testing a few hundred meters, I have yet to find a practical use for it actually... Just my two cents,Greg
GMetcalf Posted June 11, 2015 Posted June 11, 2015 No particular or unusual need. I was reading about using quick fuse as a leader. Well, the stuff I've been using as a leader is labeled "Fast Fuse", with sort of a tissue paper wrap over a couple of strands of gray match. It works pretty well, thought not as fast as quick match. I've been thinking ahead to when it's gone, so I figured I'd ask around first instead of just throwing some stuff in a bowl and see what happens. When it runs out just make your own thin Black Match, take three strands, wrap it in tissue paper nice and tight, et voila! Homemade fast fuse! Not sure how thin to make the Black Match though... Too thin and it might not burn as fast as you want it, not thin enough and it might behave more like Quick Match and burn a tad faster than you're after. After personally testing a few hundred meters, I have yet to find a practical use for it actually... I imagined there would be a very good reason why we stuck to using Potassium Nitrate based Black Powder for all our fusing needs and never switched to Potassium Perchlorate based things. On paper Perchlorate is a superior oxidiser providing more oxygen more readily as well as more heat than Nitrate, in practice it's all just a little too much for anything except essential things such as coloured stars.
Mumbles Posted June 11, 2015 Posted June 11, 2015 I imagined there would be a very good reason why we stuck to using Potassium Nitrate based Black Powder for all our fusing needs and never switched to Potassium Perchlorate based things. On paper Perchlorate is a superior oxidiser providing more oxygen more readily as well as more heat than Nitrate, in practice it's all just a little too much for anything except essential things such as coloured stars. Actually, potassium nitrate based compositions tend to have a significantly lower ignition temperature, which generally tends to yield faster and more robust combustions. This can be generalized by looking at their melting points. Potassium nitrate is approximately 200C lower than perchlorate. When burning similar compositions at roughly atmospheric pressures nitrate based compositions will usually be faster. This is pretty apparent when observing the burn rates of BP vs. say KP. I'm not High pressure combustions will tilt the scales in favor of perchlorates in most cases.
Merlin Posted August 19, 2016 Posted August 19, 2016 (edited) I wonder if black match will ignite color pill box stars as obviously they are not primed at all. Would you not get better ignition with these stars using KP match? Or.....would you be better off using silicon in the black match slurry? Edited August 19, 2016 by Merlin
Redrocketman Posted August 19, 2016 Posted August 19, 2016 I've put 2 - 3 1mm strands of regular black match in a bendy drinking straw, it's then REALLY quick match! I forget you pyro guys have to bend it a lot more. Apart from the obvious uses for KCIO4, I do use it in a certain pyrogen for H/D igniters for large motors but kno3 is easier to ignite in general and a bit cheaper, well 3 times cheaper
dagabu Posted August 19, 2016 Posted August 19, 2016 I find that if I pull two to three of the strands out, the violence is limited and its transfers the fire fine. Leaving all 5 makes for a lot of ripping nosings off! 1
Wiley Posted August 20, 2016 Posted August 20, 2016 Dag, I took that a step further. Rolled a 1/4" ID tube from 30# masking kraft, and put two strands of that match inside it. It still goes bang, but it has passed fire every time on many dozens of shells. I still use it very occasionally when a shell such as a 1.75" lampare is too tight a squeeze in the gun for my thicker passfire.
dagabu Posted August 20, 2016 Posted August 20, 2016 The long way or spiral wound tube? I cant seem to make on the long way at all, retarded hands.
Wiley Posted August 21, 2016 Posted August 21, 2016 Long way. The tubes are only 12" long, so it's not hard at all.
mikeee Posted August 21, 2016 Posted August 21, 2016 The long way or spiral wound tube? I cant seem to make on the long way at all, retarded hands. Dave, If you keep rolling match pipe like that you will go blind, rotate the mandrel 90 degrees and you can roll the long pipe. Spiral wound is the easier method for rolling match pipe, trying to roll a long piece length wise on a long mandrel is a painin the ass. You almost need a 2nd pair of hands to help wrap the length of paper onto the mandrel, some people will wet orglue the starting edge onto the mandrel and then begin rolling the paper onto the mandrel evenly. This method complicatespulling the pipe off the mandrel at times. A slot down the length of the mandrel would be another way to hold the paper whilestarting the rolling process and allow the pipe to slide off easily. Then you have to put a small fold along the length of the paperbefore rolling each pipe which slows the process down. Have you ever tried a flat mandrel and just fold the paper around it several times and then glue the final edge? This would beeasy to fold and easy to pull the mandrel from the pipe, and it will be flat like regular match pipe on a roll. 1
dagabu Posted August 21, 2016 Posted August 21, 2016 I like the idea of a piece of flat stock, I can pick up a piece of 1/16 thick aluminum at one of the box stores. Good idea!
OldMarine Posted August 21, 2016 Posted August 21, 2016 Can't post pics at the moment but my 1/16"x 3/8" aluminum stock worked very well. Apply glue on the first and last folds of 30#kraft ( I used 3 turns) and Voila! I likee!I've got round water resistant tubing I bought from a fellow pyro but the ability to make my own flat QM is awesome!
Merlin Posted August 21, 2016 Posted August 21, 2016 (edited) I am gonna get a flat piece of Al the appropriate size and lay the black match along the length and fold a couple times- done. It is somewhat tedious to thread the match through purchased leader pipe. It make not be " kosher" but determine where the last fold will be and spray with elmers spray adhesive. It would be easy and quick Many thanks to Dr. Evil! Edited August 21, 2016 by Merlin 1
patsroom Posted August 21, 2016 Posted August 21, 2016 If one is trying to roll 1/4" paper tubes go to youtube and look up "little paper tube roller" by Petr Bouček. There you will see the person use a 1/4" rod in a drill to roll the paper tube. The paper has glue running the length of the outer edge to glue it down and I think it would work fine for our needs. I use newspaper to make my tubes.And to it being tedious to thread BM into the tube I go in 3 ft. sections slid up the length of BM (doing 20 ft. lengths). But one could drop a needle and thread thru the length of the tubing and pull the BM thru..................Pat
chuckufarley Posted August 21, 2016 Posted August 21, 2016 Is it necessary to have multiple wraps of (30#) Kraft for QM leader pipe? I was thinking of a machine to make continuous lengths of pipe, but it would be hard to achieve more that a slight overlap on a single layer of Kraft. Am I asking for blow outs of the piping with only a single layer?
Mumbles Posted August 22, 2016 Posted August 22, 2016 I usually shoot for at least 2 layers. You want it to be resistant to splitting and to casual stray sparks. I've seen some add layers of aluminum foil to their quickmatch tubing for extra spark resistance. That's not to say you can't try, 1 layer or that it won't work. Roll up a couple testers before committing to a full machine or jig just to make sure it works right. Rolling up 3 foot sections or so isn't that hard. You can always connect multiple sections together if you need something longer. Rolling it with a board on top instead of your hands can help keep things even. Covering said board in rubber sheeting provides a nice amount of grip and rolls nice tight tubes.
chuckufarley Posted August 22, 2016 Posted August 22, 2016 Thanks mumbles. It was just an idea for the moment. I've never been overly fond of (or talented at) rolling tubes by hand. I'll make some samples and see how they would work as they would come off of the machine. I could probably incorporate a alluminum foil inner layer pretty easily, if the test show it's helpful for my process. I need some practical advice like that some times to check a brain that like to make complicated devices to complete simple tasks. 😀
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