Poor lift powder not getting shells and baseball high enough into the air

[jordanm]

I did the baseball test with my lift powder and 7s/ft fuse yesterday and got some bad results:

8-20Mesh

7.09g=1.1s from apex to ground

11.34g=1.5s from apex to ground

12.76g=2.00s from apex to ground

14.17g=1.99s from apex to ground

 

4-8Mesh

14.17g=1.89s from apex to ground

Seems like the larger mesh size did not make a difference in my results.

 

Quickmatch fuse instead of the 7s/ft yielded a better result with the same amount of 8-20 Mesh lift:

12.76g=2.20s from apex to ground

 

There is about an 1/8" between the baseball and the side of the tube. Just enough room for a fuse to run down along the side of the ball into the lift cup i am using.

 

I believe i am looking for a number around 4.33 seconds which was achieved by skylighter with only abt 12.76g of lift and a height of 300ft.

 

I videod the process of me doing this but this does not look like very good data. I get all my chemicals from Hobby Chemical Supply. I ball mill the nitrate,sulfur,charcoal and dextrin for 6hrs, granulate it with water and dry it for a week. My only guess is that it might still be wet because i was doing some test shots with fireworks last week with older BP i had made and they were going alot higher with 10% by wt for lift.

 

Formula im using for BP 10g sulfur, 75g KNO3, 15g airfloat charcoal (mixed hardwoods), 4g Dextrin.

 

The only thing i can come up with is that the BP could possibly be a little wet yet.

 

I will try the results tonight with double the black powder and see what happens. Does anyone else have any suggestions?

 

Thanks

[calebkessinger]

If your powder isn't dry in a couple hours after you make it it won't be near as good as it could be.

 

Granulate it and lay it on paper in the sun on a nice hot day.. That should get you the best you can get out of hardwood charcoal.

 

a LOT of people have went to making their own cedar charcoal. it's about as hot as it gets and easy to make, I have some red alder charcoal I have been selling that is real close to as hot as cedar.

 

There are a ton of variables when making bp, getting your mill with the media and powder charge, finding the right charcoal for your use, getting your granulating and drying process down. The cedar has been the go to fix for most, it's Dramatically better than the hardwoods even without getting your process perfect.

[jordanm]

I thought that rapid drying in the sun was frowned upon due to water molecules getting trapped in the interior of the granules when the exterior dried so quick. I have access to cedar i just did not want to go through the process of having to make charcoal being a month away from the fourth of July. I just bought 10 more pds of air float charcoal from hobby chemical supply earlier this week.

http://www.hobbychemicalsupply.com/charcoal-air-float/

 

Is there anything i can do to resurrect what i already have made or should i just try adding double the lift and see what the results are?

[jordanm]

I have also contemplated making H3 now because i will not be making anything over 3" but i hear it has poor time fuse lighting capabilities. and i dont have Sodium Salicylate to make benzolift.

[calebkessinger]

10 lbs of charcoal that doesn't do what you want !! ahhhhh.....

 

Look up tlud cooker. one bag of cedar bedding, and one evening and you will have plenty of HOT charcoal that mills right up and you will be SUPER DUPER HAPPY!

 

and again.. I have alder on hand.

 

 

( you have quick match? if so put some down into the lift charge as a whole all the strands together still and make a containing unit for it, bag , cup, wrapped tightly. It will help get all the powder lit before pushing the ball shell out of the gun. You can also use a dab of whistle or slow flash dusted on the bp..) I know, not ideal and it doesn't take but a TOUCH. you are just trying to get all that slow bp to burn quicker not push your shell out of the gun with something other than bp. Stand back, test, stand back test. you have to force slow bp to release all of it's gas at once.

 

all of this can be fixed with GOOD charcoal. and that is the best and safest way to do so.

[FlaMtnBkr]

You will never be happy with that commercial hardwood charcoal when trying to make hot BP.

 

You can try all kinds of things but it just is not going to work well. Get some known good charcoal like Caleb is selling or make your own from a good wood. Not all cedar works well. Some has lots of sap and resin. You want eastern red cedar that is used for pet bedding. If you aren't sure about the wood you can't be sure about the charcoal but it will likely be better than the commercial stuff you have.

 

And you do want to dry your BP as fast as you can as this will make the best BP. The longer it takes to dry the less hot it will be as the nitrate has longer to dissolve and then make bigger crystals. I put mine on plastic trays in about 1/4" layers and put in direct sun. I will even use a fan sometimes if it starts to get cloudy. About every 45 min or an hour I stir the BP to get the damp material on top.

 

The smaller granules of BP won't get driven in like bigger and denser stars can. So get them dry quick. Also, don't use any metal bowls in direct sun. There have been multiple ignition from doing so.

 

Probably 90% of problems with BP comes down to the charcoal. Go ahead and buy some good stuff and you will have good BP in plenty of time for the 4th.

 

Also, when timing your baseball flights you will get much more accurate times going from lift to landing instead of trying to identify the apex unless the ball is just very low. Through experimentation it has been found that shells (and baseballs) reach their apex in 1/3 the total flight time and falls for 2/3 the flight time. You can use this if you want to find the height from the freefall time (2/3 of total flight time).

[jordanm]

Ok thanks for your help on this. Im going to try making some pine charcoal tonight in a fire with the pine in a paint can. Seems like it takes abt an hour to go to completion does this sound about right? If nothing else i guess i will have to use the bad charcoal for burst. I am comfortable with making flash although it seems this could cause quite a variance in how each shell performs. I guess if you used the same amount of flash dusted on the same charcoal it could perform repeatedly. How much would you suggest? Im guessing were talking less than a gram for a normal say 3" shell that would normally take about 12g of lift based on 10% of the weight of the shell? I cannot find my formula for slow flash anymore can you tell me what it is once again if you have it on hand? From what i recall it uses KNO3 instead of perchlorate correct? Once i am able to run up north and grab some cedar i will attempt to make some cedar charcoal.

 

I do have quick match although the sole purpose i bought it for was to use for crossmatching. I did notice an improvement using this instead of the normal visco however. Maybe i will just use a short piece of a few inches going into the lift cup and run visco the rest of the way out of the tube.

[jordanm]

Will this simple way of making charcoal work?

[calebkessinger]

Yes that way will make charcoal.

Pine is not what you want for lift though. it should be better than the hardwood though.

Just try making some. don't rush, Better to just have a few shells than rush through and do something stupid and get hurt. There is plenty of time for pyro even after the fourth.

[Arthur]

Charcoal is 15% of BP but controls everything. Moist charcoal causes you to weigh the moisture meaning that the mixture will be wrong. An unsuitable wood will make only really bad charcoal. Find a list of good woods for charcoal and select one that is available in your area.

[jordanm]

Ok i will practice with the pine to make sure i can make it then i will use the cedar.

 

I believe what i have is red cedar. It grows in a swamp area and looks like this:

http://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large/michigan-cedar-cones-leeann-mclane-goetz.jpg

Can anyone confirm if this is red cedar?

After turning to charcoal i assume all you do is smash it with a hammer and throw it in a ball mill, about how long of milling does it take to be suitable and then does it have to be milled with the nitrate and sulfur as well or can you throw everything in together from the start? Sorry if i am starting to be annoying im sure this is all documented somewhere if i search for it. I know how newbies can be on forums with all their questions.

[jordanm]

Will any red cedar mulch chips work or are there additives in some of these that make them unusable?:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Vigoro-0-8-cu-ft-Rubber-Mulch-in-Cedar-Red-HDVCRMN8CB/203714941?cm_mmc=SEM%7cG%7cBT3%7cPLA&gclid=CIb_6o7R8cUCFQaraQodGHAAZQ&gclsrc=aw.ds

[Arthur]

Wood supplied as mulch may have partly rotted and this breaks the cellular structure which is important for good BP. There is talk of good charcoal coming from WRC supplied as pet bedding.

[jordanm]

Wood supplied as mulch may have partly rotted and this breaks the cellular structure which is important for good BP. There is talk of good charcoal coming from WRC supplied as pet bedding.

Thats what i was thinking. Seems like 2x4s can be used as well. About how long does it take on the fire to be turned to charcoal. Also how long does it need to be milled for and what size mesh should it pass through after being milled to be used for good lift?

[calebkessinger]

The eastern read cedar pet bedding is what a LOT of people are using, the mulch hasn't really been tested and I would assume it would be poor due to all the added moisture and such.

 

You can get the pet bedding at wal-mart , pet store , or farm store.. if it looks moist in the bag just dry it a little before cooking.

 

I just weigh it out as I would my charcoal for the bp still in the chunky form.. let it mill for a bit before adding all the nitrate and sulfer.

 

You will be VERY happy with your first batch I would bet. For most people it is an immediate relief to what ails them.

[jordanm]

Ok i might pick up some tommorow. What if it does not say red cedar on the bag and just says cedar:

http://www.petsmart.com/supplies/bedding/grreat-choice-cedar-wood-shavings-pet-bedding-zid36-3607/cat-36-catid-600027?var_id=36-3607

 

http://www.walmart.com/ip/AlfaPet-Cedar-Bedding-9-l-Dogs/22151989

 

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Pestell-Pet-Products-BCEPE3000B-3000-cu.-in.-Cedar-Bedding/25549681

[jordanm]

Does this one look good?:

http://www.amazon.com/HARTZ-2205310161-Hartz-Cedar-Bedding/dp/B002Y2R3KM/ref=sr_1_1?s=pet-supplies&ie=UTF8&qid=1433272805&sr=1-1&keywords=red+cedar+bedding

 

I can use my amazon prime and have it in 2 days and it is probably the same cost as the petsmart ones.

 

Or this one is $20 for 5 cubic feet or around 37 gallons. Seems like that would make quite a bit.

http://www.amazon.com/NORTHEASTERN-PRODUCTS-216010-Bedding-compressed/dp/B0018CFZKO/ref=sr_1_4?s=pet-supplies&ie=UTF8&qid=1433272805&sr=1-4&keywords=red+cedar+bedding

Edited June 2, 2015 by jordanm

[calebkessinger]

They don't make near the amount of charcoal you think they should.

the big bags make a little over 4 lbs of airfloat if you cook them correctly.

Those seem to be the correct thing.

[rogeryermaw]

are you talking about the alfapet brand? i was looking at it yesterday but didn't buy it. i can't find anyinfo that verifies it is EASTERN red cedar. the website doesn't say and good luck getting c.s. to answer the phone. if it is indeed eastern red i'll buy it in a heartbeat.

[jordanm]

They don't make near the amount of charcoal you think they should.

the big bags make a little over 4 lbs of airfloat if you cook them correctly.

Those seem to be the correct thing.

Holy cow the 5cuft bag will only make 4lbs? or the smaller bag?

[calebkessinger]

The big bag.. only makes a little over 4 lbs..

I cooked two big bags the other evening and had around a 5 gallon bucket of cooked charcoal chips.

 

That's close to 25 lbs of bp. How much you need ? !!

[jordanm]

The big bag.. only makes a little over 4 lbs..

I cooked two big bags the other evening and had around a 5 gallon bucket of cooked charcoal chips.

 

That's close to 25 lbs of bp. How much you need ? !!

I guess thats plenty. How long do you think it takes you to cook a container full? I have a paint can on the fire right now. Looks just like the video. There is alot of smoke coming out the top that the neighbors are most likely not enjoying right now. I think i will order the big bag off of amazon and work on cooking it this weekend and see if i can get some decent bp out of it.

[FlaMtnBkr]

I wouldn't use mulch. It is usually full of dirt, water, and many times are colored red or brown somehow.

 

The pet bedding chips are so thin that the charcoal breaks up really easy and can be weighed out and put in the mill with the nitrate and sulfur and doesn't need to be ground up first. However, other charcoal made from bigger pieces of wood will need to be milled first.

 

Pine lumber will make decent BP if you want to try it. You want wood that is white and not yellow and the less dense it is the better. If you have ever picked through a stack of lumber looking for straight pieces, you will notice some pieces are a lot lighter weight than others. The lighter weight ones will make hotter BP. If you are using scrap that is hard to tell but that will work better. Just cut the lumber a little shorter than your paint can and then take a hatchet or machete and split into small pieces about 3/4"x3/4" or smaller. Then pack them into your paint can filling it up. If any pieces are a little bigger try to put them towards the outside and the smallest in the center. It's not super important so don't spend a lot of time sorting them, just if any are significantly different in size.

 

A one gallon can will probably take 40 min to an hour but will vary a lot depending on the wood, how dry it is, how hot the fire is, etc. Just make sure you seal the can well when it's done or it will turn to ash. Also, you might want to make a TLUD if using the pet bedding as they cook better in the TLUD. In a retort they really need to be stirred up during the cook.

[pyrokid]

Use caution when using "slow" BP to break shells. Simpler is better, so I use 1 speed of milled BP for everything. You may be disappointed with the power of the slow BP when used as break charge.

 

Pick up some cotton yarn at the store and make some black match of your own. It is straightforward and much cheaper than dismantling quickmatch.

 

Save the mixed hardwood charcoal for streamer stars and glitter.

 

FlaMtnbkr gave some great advice about charcoal making. If you are using a paint can with holes in the top, use pennies to seal the can when cooking is over.

[calebkessinger]

a 30 gallon metal trash can made into a tlud will cook half a bag in under 15 minutes.