Vintage Report Mixes

[LiamPyro]

This is a slightly random (and hopefully well-received) topic that relates to a curiousity I have had in the back of my mind for a while since watching this video:

Seeing this fairly small salute blow a crater out of asphalt got me thinking about what they used in these things, as it is obviously not the standard mix used in modern times. For curiousity's sake, does anyone have any idea what may have been in this thing? It almost seems like it could be a primary, but considering it was supposedly stored for 35 years I doubt it (note, this discussion is not about HEs).

Thanks!

Edited April 21, 2015 by LiamPyro

[pyrokid]

They used many comps, but I don't think they differ too much from what we use today. The original M-80 comp had antimony sulfide in it, but many compositions will produce an equally powerful explosion.

[FlaMtnBkr]

I just lost a long post but...

 

If it was legally made it would be closer to 50 years old. I imagine legally made or blackmarket, they would contain the cheapest and loudest thing they could get. I was going to say safest as well but that probably depends on where and who made it. I would think they used chlorate or perchlorate, aluminum, and sulfur or antimony to cut back on the amount of aluminum needed since it was/is the most expensive component. I doubt anyone would make a sensitive and dangerous primary HE to make firecrackers in any kind of quantity.

 

It's hard to tell from the video if that is an actual depression or "crater" or if it's the white/gray 'soot' that flash leaves behind. It looks strange to me that there are no white pebbles visible like the surrounding area. I also can't imagine that a few grams of flash would take a chunk out of sticky asphalt. 10g of hot flash barely scuffs the surface of soil.

 

The guys also didn't sound real sure of where it had been sitting. I guess I'm just a bit skeptical as it's hard to make a depression in dirt, let alone asphalt, by something just sitting on the ground. Even a 1 lb AN based exploding targets that are an HE don't make all that big of a depression in dirt when just sitting on the ground.

[nater]

 

 

This was from a 3" ball shell which was supposed to be a bottom shot on a Chinese attempt at a cylinder shell with timed reports. It dropped with no evidence of a time fuse. We simply stuck a piece of visco in it and lit it on the grass. It was not lit where it fell. It looked like flash made from bright aluminum and if it was constructed like similar Chinese salutes, it had a 70-80 grams and a lot of empty space.

 

Yes, more than what would be in a cracker, but still left a small divot. I have seen TK inserts leave marks and scatter gravel, but not leave a divot. I havo also seen a larger South American cracker lay grass down in a small circle, but no true depression.

Edited April 21, 2015 by nater

[LiamPyro]

Thanks for all the helpful replies! FlaMtnBkr, your skepticism of the video is understandable and makes sense. But, I have heard on other forums and such of similar things happening where salutes "made holes in the blacktop" or "broke chunks off the road". Although I find it nearly impossible to believe a few grams of (probably) fairly basic and inexpensive flash could do this, it looks like there may actually be some ground to this "myth".

 

Now about what may have been in the powder... my guess is that is could've been a KCIO3/Al based composition, and probably contained sulfur or Sb2S3 as pyrokid mentioned. In order to achieve such power, it seems like it must've had something else too. Possibly a catalyst such as MnO2 or even maybe a small amount of a "super" sensitizer like P4 (this is unlikely as it would make the mix extremely sensitive). Anyways, these are all just random guesses and hopefully you guys have a better clue as to what this mystery composition may have been made of.

 

BTW nater, looks like that bottom shot left a pretty big hole! It's interesting that the crater is very defined with a clear edge, and is quite deep. An indication of a very concentrated blast, probably. Sorry for my lack of knowledge, but what are TK inserts?

[FlaMtnBkr]

Well if you have heard others report similar then there may be something to it. I might have to experiment on the blacktop driveway next time I head to the farm.

 

But for me that video doesn't appear real clear and I can't tell one way the other if there is actual material missing. I'm still a bit skeptical that a few grams of anything would make a crater in asphalt but I will do some experimenting.

[nater]

TK = Thunder Kings. They are small salute cakes, often called "Baby B" and quite popular in displays. I think they are usually 3 or 4 gram salutes in a 3/4" bore.

[LiamPyro]

Well if you have heard others report similar then there may be something to it. I might have to experiment on the blacktop driveway next time I head to the farm.

But for me that video doesn't appear real clear and I can't tell one way the other if there is actual material missing. I'm still a bit skeptical that a few grams of anything would make a crater in asphalt but I will do some experimenting.

I have been thinking the same thing you have. I just don't get how such a small amount of powder could generate such a powerful blast wave! Testing is a good idea, hopefully you get some result out of it! I may have to conduct a test of my own as well, this is one of those phenomenons that if it worked, would be truly dumbfounding.

[LiamPyro]

TK = Thunder Kings. They are small salute cakes, often called "Baby B" and quite popular in displays. I think they are usually 3 or 4 gram salutes in a 3/4" bore.

Oh yeah I've heard of those! Thanks for clarifying.

[OblivionFall]

TK = Thunder Kings. They are small salute cakes, often called "Baby B" and quite popular in displays. I think they are usually 3 or 4 gram salutes in a 3/4" bore.

If they're about 2" long then 4-5g of Flash Powder is what they probably had in them. Powerful salutes indeed!

[LiamPyro]

I was just skimming through another topic, 'Dreaded "flash" question', and heard mention of terephthalic acid being used in flash mixes that are both fairly safe and quite powerful (making it a likely contender). Does anybody know if this may have been a component of older flash compositions? I'm going to do some research and see if it was even readily available/cheap during the '50s - '60s. Edited April 25, 2015 by LiamPyro

[Mumbles]

No. It is extremely unlikely. It was only patented in 2003. US 6,521,064

 

Surprisingly it is just a standard mix. They used 70/30, or a related formula with sulfur and/or antimony trisulfide. They all have approximately the same "power", just differ in economics of manufacture. I believe there may be a MIL-SPEC sheet floating around somewhere that may answer some questions. I generally have read that they contain somewhere between 3-5.2g of material in them. There is conflicting information around as to what the 80grains from the M-80 stands for. Some are adamant that it means 80 grains of material (5.2g) or the tube could contain 80 grains of BP. That is grains the mass by the way. It seems that the amount of flash was backed off if it was really 5.2g initially, for when they became regular consumer items.

[LiamPyro]

No. It is extremely unlikely. It was only patented in 2003. US 6,521,064

 

Surprisingly it is just a standard mix. They used 70/30, or a related formula with sulfur and/or antimony trisulfide. They all have approximately the same "power", just differ in economics of manufacture. I believe there may be a MIL-SPEC sheet floating around somewhere that may answer some questions. I generally have read that they contain somewhere between 3-5.2g of material in them. There is conflicting information around as to what the 80grains from the M-80 stands for. Some are adamant that it means 80 grains of material (5.2g) or the tube could contain 80 grains of BP. That is grains the mass by the way. It seems that the amount of flash was backed off if it was really 5.2g initially, for when they became regular consumer items.

 

Interesting. I guess they added the sulfur/Sb2S3 and didn't just use 70/30 because they're aluminum wasn't so fine and it needed sensitizing. I've wondered about that whole "80 grains" thing too. In order for a 5/8" by 1 3/4" or similar sized tube to hold that much powder, it would probably need to be compacted a bit. I'm sure the consumer items contained less, both to save money and because flash burns faster when loose (just like meal BP). That would make sense that 80 grains was the amount of BP/smokeless the tubes could hold, because it is an easy way to gauge volume. Just like how water/sand can be used to compare the volumes of two bottles.

BTW I have seen a list of a few different flash formulas that were supposedly used in the Military M-80, they are all based on KCIO4/Al and have Sb2S3 and/or sulfur added to them. Here they are:

 

64% KClO4

22.5% Al

10% S

3.5% Sb2S3

 

66% KClO4

17% Al

17% Sb2S3

 

66% KClO4

17% Al

8.5% S

8.5% Sb2S3

[countryboy7978]

No. It is extremely unlikely. It was only patented in 2003. US 6,521,064

 

Surprisingly it is just a standard mix. They used 70/30, or a related formula with sulfur and/or antimony trisulfide. They all have approximately the same "power", just differ in economics of manufacture. I believe there may be a MIL-SPEC sheet floating around somewhere that may answer some questions. I generally have read that they contain somewhere between 3-5.2g of material in them. There is conflicting information around as to what the 80grains from the M-80 stands for. Some are adamant that it means 80 grains of material (5.2g) or the tube could contain 80 grains of BP. That is grains the mass by the way. It seems that the amount of flash was backed off if it was really 5.2g initially, for when they became regular consumer items.

This 80 grains argument is bunk! A true M80 was a 9/16" x 1.5" tube with paper plugs that recessed about 1/4" into each end, and a chipboard diskadded under each tube to keep the flash isolated from the glue. This leaves about 1" of space for the flash. There is no way a tube of this size would be able to hold 5.2 grams of flash without it being compressed into the tube. Even by tapping the tube to settle the flash it is difficult to get 4 grams in a tube of this size. These firecrackers were manufactured by the millions, so there is no way anyone working in the factory was going to try to settle the flash. A measured amount was likely added to each tube using a machine similar to a reloading machine, and the plug immediately added. The commercial silver salute used a tube even smaller in diameter.

[oldspark]

"This 80 grains argument is bunk! A true M80 was a 9/16" x 1.5" tube"

Talking about old firecrackers is fun especially if you are old enough to remember them.

As mumbles said they were probably toned down when they went for sale to the public, I only saw one once and you are correct on the size but more then likely they had about 3 grams of flash in them (very doable for the size tube you mentioned).

The one article I read said a cherry bomb had (these are all more or less figures) about 1 gram, silver salute had 2 grams, and the M 80 had 3 grams of flash.

[countryboy7978]

That is about correct oldspark. 3 grams will fit easily in a tube of that size with out the need to settle the flash. I don't think they were toned down from a quantity of flash powder perspective (as i still don't see them ramming 5.2 grams of flash into a tube) but the quality of the materials I'm sure went down as they went from a military item to a consumer product. I'm sure the antimony was removed and replaced with a larger quantity of cheaper sulfur and bright or american dark (which is still bright) aluminums.

 

The people who argue 80 grains must represent the 80 in M-80 must think that 16 represents something in the M16 rifle, or the 60 in M60 machine gun. Too much speculation goes into certain things because people think everything with a back-story is much more interesting. I'm guessing the military wanted a firecracker that made a loud bang without the added danger of shrapnel from the casing and was able to be tossed into water and still function. I've heard people mention that they wanted it to match the M80 ball round's (7.62mm) powder charge. I don't know what the powder charge is on that round but I doubt 80 grains of smokeless. The factories that got the contracts for these were regular fireworks factories I'd assume. More than likely Globe or Kent or Rozzi had contracts with the government to make these to their specs. Later they just cheapened the mix and sold them on the open market.

[ddewees]

"This 80 grains argument is bunk! A true M80 was a 9/16" x 1.5" tube"

Talking about old firecrackers is fun especially if you are old enough to remember them.

As mumbles said they were probably toned down when they went for sale to the public, I only saw one once and you are correct on the size but more then likely they had about 3 grams of flash in them (very doable for the size tube you mentioned).

The one article I read said a cherry bomb had (these are all more or less figures) about 1 gram, silver salute had 2 grams, and the M 80 had 3 grams of flash.

http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o588/SaltLakeAreaPyros/old_zpsjru7x9tt.jpg

[Arthur]

A small number of possible flash mixes are listed here http://www.thegreenman.me.uk/pfp/flash.html(Which is a permitted rehost of something now gone from the web) Every one of those has something hazardous about it some have many hazardous things. That the formulae are listed is NOT a suggestion to make them,

[LiamPyro]

Nice looking salutes ddewes!! Are they vintage, or replicas? And what is the filling in the ends of the tube and the putty around the fuse?

I found a cool image online of the classic Miller brand M-80s, here it is:

I read in "The Book of Great American Firecrackers" by Jack Nash that Kent manufactured the original mil-spec M-80s, and that they actually had a major disaster while trying to salvage a bad batch that hadn't passed government specifications. They set up a fix station to apply a special "fuse dope" in order to keep the powder from leaking out where the fuses entered the casings. The operation involved a drying tunnel with bulbs strung up to dry the glue, which the Kent managers knew was unsafe but was insisted upon by the government. Anyways, explosions began in the drying tunnel and a few minutes later a massive and unexplained explosion occurred about 50 feet away in which 37,500 salutes exploded simultaneously. All windows within a two mile radius were blown out, and a rumor spread in a neighboring town that an atomic bomb had gone off.

[FlaMtnBkr]

...or american dark (which is still bright) aluminums.

 

 

My 809 American dark is pretty dark and looks quite similar to my German black (Eckart 5413). Maybe not quite as dark but nothing like bright paint grade aluminums which are actually silver. In flash the American and German sound the same and ignite the same (my bright can be difficult). Though I think the German is more brissant and powerful. I use my 809 for just about anything I would use German for and for the price it can't be beat.

 

Are there other types of American dark? Just curious about the statement and not trying to be argumentative.

[ddewees]

Nice looking salutes ddewes!! Are they vintage, or replicas? And what is the filling in the ends of the tube and the putty around the fuse?

I found a cool image online of the classic Miller brand M-80s, here it is:

image.jpg

I read in "The Book of Great American Firecrackers" by Jack Nash that Kent manufactured the original mil-spec M-80s, and that they actually had a major disaster while trying to salvage a bad batch that hadn't passed government specifications. They set up a fix station to apply a special "fuse dope" in order to keep the powder from leaking out where the fuses entered the casings. The operation involved a drying tunnel with bulbs strung up to dry the glue, which the Kent managers knew was unsafe but was insisted upon by the government. Anyways, explosions began in the drying tunnel and a few minutes later a massive and unexplained explosion occurred about 50 feet away in which 37,500 salutes exploded simultaneously. All windows within a two mile radius were blown out, and a rumor spread in a neighboring town that an atomic bomb had gone off.

They we given to me by an old gentleman, so I assumed they were authentic. I don't know anything about them.

[countryboy7978]

I've used many grades of flash aluminum and I have found American Dark to leave my fingers shiny, where as German H-Super is more of a grey on the fingers with little to no shine and Indian Black is very dark on the fingers. No maybe I made the wrong statement when I said it was bright, which typically refers to the paint grade tin-man stuff but American Dark is not nearly as reactive as German, especially without sulfur. It burns with a sizzle where as the others burn with an audible thump. I'm not saying American Dark can not make good reports but in smaller inserts I wouldn't use anything other than German or Indian without additives.

 

I've never seen a silver colored M80 with that sort of warning. That arrears to be a 9/16" tube vs the usual Silver Salute tube which is 1/2" ID. The sealant looks real on the cherry bomb as I've seen repros and this doesn't appear to be one. Most M-80s I've seen were not sealed at the fuse, but I heard that Kent used that silver sealant on their cherries.

[LiamPyro]

What type of aluminum was used for all the classic American salutes? Bright aluminum I would guess? Edited June 15, 2015 by LiamPyro