What's wrong with my BP? No lift - Video and pictures

[braddsn]

Your stars look fantastic. You will figure out your bp problem and you will be on your way! Make extra sure your bp is COMPLETELY dry. If it's not, it can produce these results also. Don't ask me how I know! Good charcoal is key to all great things in pyro. Your lift will be better, break better, prime better, charcoal stars better, the list goes on.

[tradami]

Your stars look fantastic. You will figure out your bp problem and you will be on your way! Make extra sure your bp is COMPLETELY dry. If it's not, it can produce these results also. Don't ask me how I know! Good charcoal is key to all great things in pyro. Your lift will be better, break better, prime better, charcoal stars better, the list goes on.

 

Thanks! When you granulate it I know you're supposed to dry it out in the sun. It's cold and cloudy so I thought it would be better to dry it indoors. Could that be the cause? I'm going to granulate some and let it dry in the sun today and see how we do.

[FlaMtnBkr]

There are 3 things to good BP. An efficient mill, charcoal, and fast drying if you wet it with water. It needs to be put in a thin layer when granulating and put on trays. Then placed in the sun or in front of fans so it will dry in a few hours and not all day. Stirring it around can help get the wet parts to the surface. If it takes much longer the nitrate crystals that you worked hard to get small will grow and get bigger the longer it stays wet.

[tradami]

An awesome member here reached out to me to help me with my BP. We've narrowed it down to not my methods but my material. He sent me some willow for me to cook. I will be cooking it up the next chance I get and will update the thread then with the results.

 

Just for shits and giggles I was testing out just how much of the "Bad" BP I would need to get the shell up. I put 30 grams of BP lift for a 122G 3" shell. It made it about as high as a low 500 gram cake. It probably would have looked nice except I went a little over on the booster thinking I would need it cause my BP was so bad and I ended up blowing them blind. When I make this willow BP I'll start with no booster and see how we do!

 

Thanks for everyone's help.

[pyrokid]

Something to note is that homemade charcoal made from almost any wood source has a good chance to outperform commercial airfloat. I've made charcoal from twigs found on the forest floor, some even in varying states of decay, and it made powder good enough for 8% shell weight lift.

[tradami]

SUCCESS!!!

 

A friend sent me some willow wood and I turned it into charcoal.

 

Turned that into BP and this was the result

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpB9RVOyL90

[db5086]

Glad to help tradami. Now go build you a dummy shell to test the lift. I like to put those 3' up about 300'. Dags helped me out with timing so you might take a look at that. Brad is really good with those little 3's as well. Have fun and happy Easter

[braddsn]

That's great bp tradami! Now you are set! And listen to db about the altitude... 300' is perfect for em. Everyone has their own way of doing things, but I read an article a loooong time ago, written by a Japenese shell maker. I wish I could find it so that you could read it, but it really helped me dial in my 3's. He basically said that because of the variation in size of 3" shell hemi's, always start with 30g of lift and slowly work your way down. A snug fitting shell will use your lift charge more efficiently, thus you can dial it down some. My first set of hemis that I bought were on the small side, and there was quite a bit of clearance between the shell and mortar wall. Those shells ended up needing about 25g of lift to get em to 300 ft. However, the hemi's I am using now are bigger, and there is barely any clearance in the mortar. These use about 18g of lift to achieve the same altitude. A lot of folks will say "woooahhhhh 30g is waaay too much"... and chances are, it probably will be. But you have to start somewhere, and I would rather a shell break too high, as opposed to too low. I have ran around putting fires out from low breaking shells.. it sucks! haha. If your guns are HDPE, 30g is nothing for them to handle. People seem to get caught up on how powerful their bp is and what not. Personally, I don't really care that much. As long as you have good consistent quality bp, who cares. Just use what it takes to get YOUR shells where they need to be, and don't worry about what other folks are using. Use the same charcoal every time, same milling duration, same everything. Also I can't stress enough... make sure your bp is DRY. If you go out and shoot a few shells one evening, and you are getting weak lifts, you can almost bet money that moisture is the culprit. Let the fun begin!

[MrB]

People seem to get caught up on how powerful their bp is and what not. Personally, I don't really care that much. As long as you have good consistent quality bp, who cares.

 

This is the bottom line, every time. As long as your making working BP, it doesn't have to be uver hot. Sure, it helps, you "waste" less chemicals on making it, but sometimes it's cheaper to buy more, then spending a fortune on being able to make faster BP. And if your product isn't consistent in it's performance, then no matter what you do, your always going to get a result that cant be trusted. You will always have to over lift, over charge, and so on. It cant be said often enough the most important part of pyro is learning to make a good quality reliable BP, consistently. Everything after that is just... icing.

 

Good advice Brad.

B!

[tradami]

I will be testing some shells tonight. I made two 3" shells. One with booster and one without. Just want to see what kind of difference 1g can make. Both pasted the same way. One shell weighs 112g the other weighs 116g. I'm using 15g lift in both of the shells. Will get video tonight!

 

What are everyone's thoughts on lift cups? Does it make a difference if I use plastic wrap to hold the lift charge and tape it tightly to the bottom versus using a 3 oz dixie cup? With the dixie cup the shell sits further from the plug and there's more air. Because of the empty space I feel like the lift wouldn't be as powerful as a lift cup that fits better. Sure it makes a difference but will it make that much of a difference? I'll find out tonight but just wondering what everyone's thoughts are.

[db5086]

I use a Dixie cup trimmed down enough so that the time fuse is just off the bottom. Since the fuses are all the same I do a bunch of them (trimming) at a time.The idea of plastic wrap and it melting inside the gun doesn't appeal to me. Just my 2 cents

[Mumbles]

I don't personally like lift cups much. I generally shoot at club shoots though where the same mortars are reused over and over. They tend to lead to build up, and low breaks on occasion. If I were to use them, you can just trim them down to size roughly.

 

I generally contain my lift into a plastic bag, and either paste the "bun" onto the shell, or use aluminum tape to hold it on. I like to protect the lift in some way if I can so it doesn't get damaged as easily.

[Shunt]

As to lift cups, I just use the paper cups like you get at fast food places to put your ketchup or other condiments in. My local restaurant supply store has them for cheap in different sizes. I have used white glue to put 2 or 3 together, and they are quite strong.

 

If you want to waterproof the lift charge, dip them in sodium silicate, or use sodium silicate AS the glue. Only downside is the residue left in the gun.

 

If you want to really get frisky and experiment with little residue left in the gun, soak them in a saturated solution of KN03 before use. I have never tried that, but the paper might burn to ash in the bottom of the gun after it was fired.

 

I think too much, my mind wanders sometimes...

[clarkie752]

Tradami: That bp looks a lot better than the first batch. Congrats. Make sure to post a video of the next shell you build. I am sure it will be nice.

[braddsn]

I used lift cups on my first few shells, but Mumbles converted me to using sandwich bags taped tight to the bottom of the shells. I use aluminum tape to tape the bag to the shell. Other tape can remain on fire in the gun for a few minutes. I noticed an increase in power when I confined the lift in a baggie, as opposed to using a lift cup. But either method works. You probably already know this, but if you are going to reload, be very careful. Even if you think there is nothing smoldering in the gun, the smoke from the previous shell can make it impossible to see. SO never ever have any body part or your face over the gun. I treat my mortars as if they are loaded guns all the time, even if there is not a shell in them. It's a good habit to get in to. Good luck and we wanna see some video!

[db5086]

The boy's have spoken travail, VIDEO,VIDEO,VIDEO......

[tradami]

So the good news and bad news was the lift was a success but the break wasn't. I tested two shells. I made them the same exact way I made my original shells (The ones that didn't make it off the ground) except for burst I used this new BP(I wanted to see the difference).

 

Turns out this faster BP killed my stars lol. I don't think it's a matter of them not lighting; I think they were blown apart. I plan to use MCRH in the future but a few cases of consumer fireworks fell on my star roller in storage and killed my bucket. My next plan is to make the same shells again except for break charge one shell use MCRH and the other one use my old "slow" BP. I probably won't be able to do an update this weekend as I'll be at MAFF.

 

First shell

Weight: 112g

Lift: 15g in 3oz untrimmed dixie cup

No booster

5 layers

Dried 24 hours

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NuMBghbx1w

 

 

Second shell

Weight: 116g

Lift: 15g in plastic baggy taped tightly to shell

1g slow flash booster

5 layers

Dried 12 hours

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bsCfCrRDFs

Edited April 7, 2015 by tradami

[clarkie752]

Those shells looked good to me. Nice job. I think your stars were just a little big for the shell. Other than that they work nice.

[braddsn]

Tradami you are on your way! The timefuse was perfect, don't change it. Lift was perfect, don't change it. Now for your burst charge, if you want a 'normal' break (like for TT, willow, slow gold, etc) then use meal coated rice hulls, 7:1 ratio. For color shells that you want to break hard, start adding 70/30 dusted onto the break charge right before putting the hemi's together. Start with 1 gram, then work up 1 gram at a time until you get the desired break power. Probably won't need more than 3 grams. If you start blowing blind stars, back off on the flash until you get 100% ignition again. If your stars are breaking apart, then they probably aren't dry. For 3" color shells to break hard, I use 7:1 MCRH dusted with 3% slow flash, then 3g 70/30 dusted on hemis right before I close the shell up. YMMV. Keep it up!

[gregh]

I thought they looked great. I wish you would have waited a few more minutes until it was darker. But I also understand the overwhelming urge to fire them ASAP!

[db5086]

Lift looks good. Have fun at the festival. If you find a good deal on leader pipe let me know

[tradami]

Those shells looked good to me. Nice job. I think your stars were just a little big for the shell. Other than that they work nice.

Thanks. I screened my stars through three different sizes. The stars I'm using right now are a mix of larger and smaller ones. I'm going to try another shell with 1/4" stars. I like how much these stars hang though. I'll test it .

 

Tradami you are on your way! The timefuse was perfect, don't change it. Lift was perfect, don't change it. Now for your burst charge, if you want a 'normal' break (like for TT, willow, slow gold, etc) then use meal coated rice hulls, 7:1 ratio. For color shells that you want to break hard, start adding 70/30 dusted onto the break charge right before putting the hemi's together. Start with 1 gram, then work up 1 gram at a time until you get the desired break power. Probably won't need more than 3 grams. If you start blowing blind stars, back off on the flash until you get 100% ignition again. If your stars are breaking apart, then they probably aren't dry. For 3" color shells to break hard, I use 7:1 MCRH dusted with 3% slow flash, then 3g 70/30 dusted on hemis right before I close the shell up. YMMV. Keep it up!

Thanks for that info! For timefuse I'm actually using green visco. I ordered some timefuse and for over a week now it's been sitting at the post office 40 minutes from my house and apparently USPS is confused as what to do with it. It can go from florida to Michigan in 12 hours but 7 days later it can't make the final trek lol. When I get back I'll be making some MCRH and I'll make some shells with that.

 

I thought they looked great. I wish you would have waited a few more minutes until it was darker. But I also understand the overwhelming urge to fire them ASAP!

I usually wait until it's really dark out. I was disappointed. I couldn't wait as I shot these while I was on my hour lunch(dinner) from work. It was my only chance to shoot them. If I shot after work it would have been too late and it's supposed to rain every day the rest of this week until I leave this weekend. I couldn't wait that long lol.

 

Lift looks good. Have fun at the festival. If you find a good deal on leader pipe let me know

Thanks! I have some leader pipe I bought but never plan to use. PM me your address.

[tradami]

Was able to shoot some shells tonight. Made two shells before going to MAFF. Both were identical except for stars. In one shell I used 1/4" stars and in the other I used 3/8" stars. I think I liked the 3/8" stars better.

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izPjCJSf01E

[braddsn]

3/8" stars win for sure! Excellent looking shell man! Don't change it.

[clarkie752]

Yeah 3/8" definitely look good you got them dialed in now. Nice looking shell.