DavidF Posted December 27, 2015 Posted December 27, 2015 The pyro community is pretty small, and often maligned, or under some sort of attack or another. It would be really good if we could put our differences aside and focus on our similarities. I was a member of Passfire when it was a place where experienced intelligent pyros went to belittle others. At that time- and now- a person could ignore the vitriol and be exposed to all kinds of great information. I had the chance to sort the wheat from the chaff and I chose the chaff. My mistake. Now, with the site (and MYSELF!) re-focused on pyro, I see all kinds of stuff that I missed before. The membership fee is peanuts compared to the value of the articles, and the chance of having questions answered by some of the best in the art. A forum is what the members make it. We can do better this time I think. I rejoined. I would suggest others do the same to support the art.
lloyd Posted December 27, 2015 Posted December 27, 2015 Kevin,I'm not sure I 'get' the laugh. I find most of the conversations on both sites to be civil now, except for the stupid political sub-boards, which always seem to elicit the worst from everyone. Lloyd
MrB Posted December 27, 2015 Posted December 27, 2015 "Well at least you don't have to pay to use APC..."------------What's that old expression? <G> Lloyd Um... There is no free lunch? I find most of the conversations on both sites to be civil now, except for the stupid political sub-boards, which always seem to elicit the worst from everyone. Noooo. Really? But politics, and religion is always sure topics to attract attention, and bring friends together. Why would anyone mess with that...? Lloyd, there really isn't any excuse for a broken search-function. It's great to hear that the articles started coming up again, But i think it would help if priorities were made so that the search was fixed...But then again, as i said, i never used neither Passfire, nor Fireworking. In my mind they were both great spaces, i just never made it there.B!
taiwanluthiers Posted December 27, 2015 Posted December 27, 2015 I remembered USENET groups like rec.pyro where you're basically belittled and attacked if you didn't sound like an expert... of course there's basically no moderation in USENET. Actually I wondered what caused the downfall of that?
lloyd Posted December 27, 2015 Posted December 27, 2015 (edited) rec.pyro still exists. It's a seldom-visited 'cemetery usegroup', but people still occasionally ask questions there. <shrug> I personally watch it in order to direct honest, inquiring minds to more productive sites. There are a lot of ne'er-do-wells who drop in there, too, but they get sent away unfulfilled. Lloyd Edited December 27, 2015 by lloyd
Pyronaught Posted December 27, 2015 Posted December 27, 2015 rec.pyro was destroyed by relentless automated sporge attacks that nobody could really do anything about. I don't know if the sporge still occurs, but once it drove everyone away they never came back.
lloyd Posted December 27, 2015 Posted December 27, 2015 Correct. A few folks drop in every couple of weeks, and several of us watch out for them, just to get their attention drawn to more productive venues. Lloyd
Pyronaught Posted December 27, 2015 Posted December 27, 2015 Mine was a constructive comment, I never said that the content of passfire was BAD, just that it's hard to get to, opposed to fireworking and APC. No, but it was inaccurate. The quality of the illustrations is superior to that found on fireworking, and the articles are formatted into easily readable pages as opposed to one giant run-on page the way they are on fireworking. You can click on page numbers to quickly get to any page in the article, and the pages are organized by topics many times. The images can be clicked on to give a large view, which you can't do on fireworking, and there is also a slide-show mode where you can view each image with its caption in large scale mode. The captions are also designed to give enough information to make browsing the article in short-hand mode without even reading it to get the critical bits of information-- none of which ned's artices do. It might not be optimal for reading on a cell phone, but that is not the same as "not clearly written". The only gripe you had with any validity to it was the broken search function-- a problem which has been worked on several times but is hard to fix when it is a bug within a third party component over which the site admin has no control over. The only option would be to replace the forum, except there are no replacements available for the platform passfire is built on. Which means the entire site would have to be ported to another platform just to fix the search problem. BTW, how are donations a noble way to pay for the work getting done while subscriptions are just greedy capitalist money making schemes? Oh I know-- donations allow you to get what you want for free while someone else picks up the tab. Got it.
lloyd Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 <G> If I'd said all that, I'd have been accused of having a financial interest in the site (which I don't). Thanks for setting those parts of the record straight.L
FlaMtnBkr Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 So is Shimizu's book not worth reading now because Shimizu is dead?I just lost a long post. Long story short, you are right. At the time the Passfire forum was fairly dead and as a newbie having your questions answered quickly is likely a major selling point. But overall, Passfire likely contains much more archived information, especially more advanced topics. To be fair it's been a while since I've been on Fireworking, but I doubt it's grown that much. Also, the words running off the page can be fixed by clicking on the full screen forum link.
Peret Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 rec.pyro was destroyed by relentless automated sporge attacks that nobody could really do anything about. I don't know if the sporge still occurs, but once it drove everyone away they never came back.That's what drove me off usenet. I was a big time usenet presence, 20 years ago, but it became impossible - perhaps one genuine post per 100 or more spam. When you're on dial up and it takes an hour or more to download megabytes of total crap, the fun goes out of it quickly.
OldMarine Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 Whelp, just anted up at the Passfire table. I'll report back with an unbiased and unvarnished report after much perusal.I know nothing of varnish and little of pyro so take it at your own peril.
lloyd Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 Jar,"Just looking around" will get you acquainted with the site, but asking questions and participating will get you the involvement of the experienced pyros. Lloyd
OldMarine Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 Lloyd, I think you've seen enough of me to know I'm plumb eat up with inquisitive nature. Knowledge is pain saved.
lloyd Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 Heh! Yep! In fact, you may have just stated why it's a good idea for any inquisitive pyro to join as many authoritative sites as possible! I have saved myself much personal (and professional) pain by participating in groups like PF and FW. Lloyd
Pyronaught Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 Words running off the page in a forum post are caused by someone posting an oversized picture that extends beyond the page width. These are usually fixed by moderators when encountered. I've actually never seen ANY website that I could tolerate looking at on a cell phone. I don't know if it's my vision just being bad, but I have to zoom to the point where scrolling is required back and forth as well as up and down when reading, which is too annoying to put up with.
Pyronaught Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 taiwanluthiers, on 27 Dec 2015 - 10:11 AM, said:Well at least you don't have to pay to use APC... APC is a different animal than Passfire or Fireworking. It does not require anywhere near as much work to create or maintain. No custom software development is involved, it is plug-and-play forum software that you just buy and install and then the forum users create all the content. There are no articles that have to be continually written, which is the most time consuming aspect of these pay sites. Writing just one decent article takes a crapload of time and sometimes a good deal of money in materials-- especially for detailed tool construction articles. You have to continually be trying to think up something new, then spend a bunch of time on R&D and sometimes the idea just outright fails and can't even be used for an article. All this requires time, which is by definition money. Is your utility bill free? Is your car payment free? Do you put free gas in your car? There seems to be this expectation in society that websites and software should all be free. Do people think that software engineers and web developers have this magic money tree that allows them to work for free? There's only two groups of people in a position to do free work: college students and retired people. Everyone in between has to earn a living with what they do with their time.
taiwanluthiers Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 (edited) I would say they can make the forum portion of the site free, but charge a subscription for the articles themselves. I say this simply because forum software can be off the shelf, no custom programming necessary. It can then be tied into the rest of the site. Edited December 28, 2015 by taiwanluthiers
MrB Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 BTW, how are donations a noble way to pay for the work getting done while subscriptions are just greedy capitalist money making schemes? Oh I know-- donations allow you to get what you want for free while someone else picks up the tab. Got it. Get of your high horse, before you fall, and smack your face on the ground. I don't see you donating, so quite clearly you feel free to participate in the free content.Other then the "holier than thou" attitude, your probably pretty well informed, but that last bit just makes me want to dismiss you as a troll all together. Which isn't in favor of what your trying to say, so, i'd suggest you, uh, tone it down. Everyone in between has to earn a living with what they do with their time. I think The Sidewinder appreciates how highly you value his efforts. After all, the efforts he invests in the forum is quite clearly not worth a dime to you, and the fact that he digs in to his pocket to cover the monthly fee's to keep the forum online, is insignificant.<G> If I'd said all that, I'd have been accused of having a financial interest in the site (which I don't). Thanks for setting those parts of the record straight.L Look, dude, your a freaking rockstar n' all, but if that dude is representative of Passfire, that alone is reason not to go there. Were here for our love of Pyro, not for some holy war about who's forum is better, or why, while trying to piss in our turf. If everyone was like you, sure, that be nice to add to the resource list, but this "I'm better then you" attitude above, isn't flying.I agree completely. If the forum has changed, the info needs to be updated. But there has to be a way of arguing your case, or rather the forum's case, without turning in to a condescending prick.B! 1
Pyronaught Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 MrB, on 27 Dec 2015 - 11:55 PM, said: I think The Sidewinder appreciates how highly you value his efforts. After all, the efforts he invests in the forum is quite clearly not worth a dime to you, and the fact that he digs in to his pocket to cover the monthly fee's to keep the forum online, is insignificant. Look, dude, your a freaking rockstar n' all, but if that dude is representative of Passfire, that alone is reason not to go there. Were here for our love of Pyro, not for some holy war about who's forum is better, or why, while trying to piss in our turf. If everyone was like you, sure, that be nice to add to the resource list, but this "I'm better then you" attitude above, isn't flying.I agree completely. If the forum has changed, the info needs to be updated. But there has to be a way of arguing your case, or rather the forum's case, without turning in to a condescending prick.B! Reading comprehension problem? The very point I was trying to make is that it IS a lot of work and yet people expect it to be free. Then you try to turn that around into some BS I never said. I guess I should expect that from a guy who makes recommendations on websites which he has never been a member of though. Do you leave book reviews on Amazon for books you've never read too? You are exactly the kind of person that instigates fighting on these forums. YOU are the one who took words out of context, injection your own meanings to create some kind of "turf war" mentality and then sunk this conversation down to the level of personal insults and name calling.
lloyd Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 MrB,I agree with you that we should uphold sites on the basis of their contribution. I also wholeheartedly agree that anyone's using terms like "condescending prick" tends to take the conversation off-course and reduce it to the lowest common denominator. If you know of a deficiency in a site, express it in civil terms, and there's just a chance that deficiency might be cured. But if a user of that site offends you, and you respond in kind, what good have you done, other than to simply perpetuate a fight in which you have no stake? Are or were you ever a member of Passfire.com? Are the things you're accusing valid due to personal experience? I've been a member nearly since its inception. I know the bad things that happened there, and the good things that are happening now. I'm not supporting Passfire singly -- I'm a member of several pay and free (contribution) forums, and each has its strengths and its weaknesses. Speak to those matters, please, without personal invective. Lloyd
Dean411 Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 I started out on this site and still visit it regularly, I have met a number of people on here and enjoy reading the posts and offering help when I can, I have also been a member of passfire and I did let it lapse, I never really posted of that forum in the year I was a member just because I didnt want to get into some bullshit argument over something stupid BUT in my opinion there really is no better collection of articles than whats on passfire and are worth the cost of membership in there own right. to sit on this forum and go back and forth about passfire and fireworking is a waste of time because both are worth your investment if you really want to learn all you can.Dean
lloyd Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 (edited) Amen, Dean. Anyone seeking knowledge needs to gather together all the resources they can lay their hands on. Lloyd (PS... your old membership is probably still there, so coming back would be only a renewal.)L Edited December 28, 2015 by lloyd
pyrokid Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 Can someone please explain what the problem is with an argument occurring on a forum? If you are right, why should it bother you that someone thinks you're wrong? Why can't you just ignore a troublemaker?
lloyd Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 I have no problem with 'arguments'. They can be conducted civilly, and there's never any reason to take another's opinion about a technical matter as an offense, even if it's completely wrong. It's the use of insults and name-calling that bothers me. I can't ignore that, because it damages the very environment of debate and idea-exchange. Lloyd
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