stix Posted February 6, 2015 Posted February 6, 2015 I have read that Carbon Black and Lamp Black are the same/similar thing? According to Wikipedia: Carbon black (subtypes are acetylene black, channel black, furnace black, lamp black and thermal black) Ok, it does say "subtype" but I've also read else-wear that they are essentially the same thing. So some clarification is needed. The reason I ask is that I'm going to make some cut "Spider" stars. I did some reading about "cut stars & glitters" on this forum and came across this comp.: Honestly, if anything I think cutting gives glitters a longer delay before flashing. The effect is also a little coarser and strobe like. Other binders and solvents are more liable to mess up your glitter. Pretty much anything chlorine based (parlon, pvc, saran) is known to kill glitters. Red gum, shellac, and other gums I have heard do very similar things. I've had good luck just screening the following spider star. There is a very nice tail on it.KNO3 - 55C - 27.5S - 10.7Dex - 6.1Lampblack - .8It adds to 100.1, but that is from rounding. The lampblack is optional, but highly recommended. Screen 3 times. It is originally from Mike Swisher. I was initially wanting to make TT, but this seems just a bit more interesting. I also have a lot of Carbon Black at my disposal. I guess I could just try it and see, but that seems like a bit of a waste of time and chems. btw. Mumbles, sorry to drag up an old "quote" of yours, hopefully you still agree with it? Cheers.
Zumber Posted February 6, 2015 Posted February 6, 2015 Lampblack and carbon black are same things,What you have heard is correct. 1
Arthur Posted February 6, 2015 Posted February 6, 2015 Carbon black is a generic term for very fine carbon containing residue from burning hydrocarbons. Lamp black is from burning oil from a wick in a very underoxidised flame, Channel black is from burning oil in a hot iron channel with too little air. Acetylene black comes from burning acetylene in a low oxygen flame. For specialist purposes especially tyre rubber compounding carefully chosen blacks are used to give wear resistance, cut resistance and sunlight resistance in different rubbers through the carcase. For star compounding it matters little which carbon black you use. For bridgeless igniters Acetylene blacks have an advantage as they are conductive, they are also used as part of the mix in anti static rubbers, as a rubber made with acetylene black will always be slightly conductive. 1
stix Posted February 6, 2015 Author Posted February 6, 2015 Thanks. I thought charcoal was bad for making a mess, but this stuff is something else.If you ever spill a bit on your workbench, make sure to gently brush it up and NOT try to wipe it up with a damp cloth. Oh dear, what a friggin' mess - and it was only a tiny bit.
WSM Posted February 6, 2015 Posted February 6, 2015 The best carbon black I've found for pyrotechnic use is completely oil free. Given that all "lampblack" is horribly messy, the oil free versions are much easier to clean up. To test for any oil content in your carbon powder, add a small spoonful to a paper cup half full of water and stir. If there's any oil, it'll float. If not, it'll mix readily with the water. Oil free carbon is produced for water based mixtures like paints or inks. A bit of alcohol added to the water used to wet the mixture may help to break the surface tension. WSM
GalFisk Posted February 6, 2015 Posted February 6, 2015 I have only opened my own bucket of lampblack and poked at it with a stick, and yes, this stuff can make a horrible mess. After you've removed all the mess you can by hand, use a kitchen cleaning product that targets fat/grease to get the rest. This works wonders when cleaning up regular charcoal as well, and hydrophobic powders in general.
Mumbles Posted February 6, 2015 Posted February 6, 2015 Yep, that is still the spider formula I use. Arthur explained it well. All lampblack is carbon black, but not all carbon black is lamp black. If you pour the lampblack into the nitrate and lightly blend it by hand first, it was be incorporated and be less likely to float around. I do it into the nitrate first so I can tell when it's well mixed. It becomes harder to tell with charcoal in there. I think the lampblack makes a somewhat nicer effect versus without it even though there is so little of it. You can certainly add more if you're feeling brave.
Arthur Posted February 6, 2015 Posted February 6, 2015 In the UK there is a supplier who will send samples of five kilos then they deliver by tanker!
stix Posted February 7, 2015 Author Posted February 7, 2015 The best carbon black I've found for pyrotechnic use is completely oil free. Given that all "lampblack" is horribly messy, the oil free versions are much easier to clean up. To test for any oil content in your carbon powder, add a small spoonful to a paper cup half full of water and stir. If there's any oil, it'll float. If not, it'll mix readily with the water. Oil free carbon is produced for water based mixtures like paints or inks. A bit of alcohol added to the water used to wet the mixture may help to break the surface tension. WSM The carbon black I have is supplied as tiny prills about 1mm diam. I tried the cup of water test and most of the prills just sunk to the bottom. They didn't dissolve in the water without some prodding, even then I wouldn't say it dissolves easily as the water didn't exactly become black. So I reckon it contains some oils? I have only opened my own bucket of lampblack and poked at it with a stick, and yes, this stuff can make a horrible mess. After you've removed all the mess you can by hand, use a kitchen cleaning product that targets fat/grease to get the rest. This works wonders when cleaning up regular charcoal as well, and hydrophobic powders in general. Thanks - My work bench is a bad colour for pyro, off white! Yep, that is still the spider formula I use. Arthur explained it well. All lampblack is carbon black, but not all carbon black is lamp black. If you pour the lampblack into the nitrate and lightly blend it by hand first, it was be incorporated and be less likely to float around. I do it into the nitrate first so I can tell when it's well mixed. It becomes harder to tell with charcoal in there. I think the lampblack makes a somewhat nicer effect versus without it even though there is so little of it. You can certainly add more if you're feeling brave. Thanks Mumbles, sounds like a good idea to mix with the nitrate first - but I had already mixed (ball-milled) all the other components together. This is what I do when making bp because I don't have my charcoal (paulownia) as "airfloat". I just crush it with my fingers in a ziplock bag and throw all the components together and ball-mill. I may look at milling all my charcoal to airfloat first, that way components can be simply "screened" when called for. Anyway, I added the carbon black and ball-milled for about an hour because I couldn't see that it was going to incorporate easily. I did a burn test and it burns beautifully. Whoosh... A "huge amount of golden sparks" for such a small amount, with very little residue. With my limited experience it seems fine - my only concern is that the oils in the carbon black might cause the dextrin to not activate properly? Only one way to find out. In the UK there is a supplier who will send samples of five kilos then they deliver by tanker! I've got about 200grams and I can't see myself ever using all that. A tanker load... is that for "the Big One"? Cheers.
Arthur Posted February 7, 2015 Posted February 7, 2015 The BIG users of carbon black are the rubber compounders and tyre makers. For every rubber kilo of tyre there is probably 200 - 400g of carbon black, and the type of black makes the difference between the brands and intended use of tyres -hot/cold weather, heavy or fast loads etc
WSM Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 The BIG users of carbon black are the rubber compounders and tyre makers. For every rubber kilo of tyre there is probably 200 - 400g of carbon black, and the type of black makes the difference between the brands and intended use of tyres -hot/cold weather, heavy or fast loads etc They're major users of acid-free sulfur, too. WSM
Arthur Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 Acid free sulphur has come on the industrial market by the thousand tonnes since the advent of low sulphur petrol and diesel. There are now mountain size heaps of sulphur round the world near oil refining sites.
Mumbles Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 It sounds like you're mixing it fine. That specific formula doesn't NEED to be milled, unlike some other spider formulas, so I thought I'd mention it. Milling for a bit probably help you out since its prilled. I'm not sure if a screen would break it up enough. I bet you'll be fine with the dextrin. You'll probably need a little alcohol anyway to break the surface tension of all that charcoal. Good luck. 1
Arthur Posted February 8, 2015 Posted February 8, 2015 Stars need scaled mesh size. If you want to make 2mm stars then fine mesh ingredients help a lot. if you are making big stars for big shells then coarser particles will work. As ever fine mesh and integration by milling will tend to make faster burning stars.
WSM Posted February 10, 2015 Posted February 10, 2015 One method of making small quantities of lampblack stars while minimizing the mess (understatement), is to carefully put the ingredients in a large zip-lock type freezer bag, close it and kneed the ingredients (without direct contact) through the bag. Moisture added before closing the bag can be more easily incorporated and dusting is cut way down. When fully mixed, the dough can be turned out on a prime dusted cutting board, rolled flat and cut for stars. Always use rubber or nitrile gloves and keeping clean hands is easier. WSM
pyrojig Posted February 10, 2015 Posted February 10, 2015 (edited) Acid free sulphur has come on the industrial market by the thousand tonnes since the advent of low sulphur petrol and diesel. There are now mountain size heaps of sulphur round the world near oil refining sites.Sound s like "pyro perfume " as WSM would say... . We have a couple refinery places , and I have to admit getting a bit excited driving by mountains of sulfur. Wish I could land a truckload at the prices they pay( pennys on the dollor) Edited February 10, 2015 by pyrojig
dagabu Posted February 10, 2015 Posted February 10, 2015 Sound s like "pyro perfume " as WSM would say... . We have a couple refinery places , and I have to admit getting a bit excited driving by mountains of sulfur. Wish I could land a truckload at the prices they pay( pennys on the dollor) They no longer have sulfur piles at the Pine Bend refinery by my place, they now turn it into a liquid form of ammonium thiosulfate and that is sold as a fertilizer. They were paying to have the sulfur trucked away because it was acidic as captured and to process it to rubber makers sulfur was more expensive than mined sulfur. I guess it is becoming a win-win.
Maserface Posted February 10, 2015 Posted February 10, 2015 Are there any incompatibilities between conductive lampblack and potassium chlorate? Should they be safe to mix? (relatively)
Mumbles Posted February 10, 2015 Posted February 10, 2015 I don't know for certain, but I would think that conductive lampblack, which is made from acetylene could possibly be better than normal lampblack. There is some fear with lampblack in general, since it may contain acidic and sulfur-containing products. This may be more of an archaic issue like some other famed incompatibilities. They're much better at removing sulfur containing by-products from industrial petroleum sources now, which coincidentally is where the previously mentioned sulfur mountains come from. Since this would probably be for e-match heads I'd say go for it. You can always mix wet if you're concerned. Once bound and dried, there shouldn't be any problems out of the ordinary. Adding a small amount of basic buffer may also give some peace of mind if you're not entirely convinced.
stix Posted February 11, 2015 Author Posted February 11, 2015 It sounds like you're mixing it fine. That specific formula doesn't NEED to be milled, unlike some other spider formulas, so I thought I'd mention it. Milling for a bit probably help you out since its prilled. I'm not sure if a screen would break it up enough. I bet you'll be fine with the dextrin. You'll probably need a little alcohol anyway to break the surface tension of all that charcoal. Good luck. I've certainly had my dramas trying get this comp together. I made two x 30g mixes. In the first mix I used 10/90 methylated spirits (denatured alcohol)/water. Mumbles, you're certainly correct in that there was no way water alone was going to bring the mix together. I didn't use the standard 25/75 ratio because I tried that once with my standard granulated bp - it never dried properly, so now I just use water and it's always consistent - I'm a bit suss about the metho I'm using. When the mix clumped up a bit I pressed a 17mm diam. comet. It seemed to press well as in no oozing. With the rest I kept spritzing until till it all finally came together enough, I put it into a ziplock bag for an hour to allow the dextrin to activate. It ended up being too wet though, so I screened it a few times to dry it out a bit, then rolled it out to cut 1/4" stars. It was so sticky that it was almost impossible - but I persevered and got them cut. With the second mix I decided to use Isopropyl instead of metho - But it just wouldn't come together. Instead, I had a bowl full of wettish fluffy but heavy charcoal stuff. I abandoned it and left the alcohol to evaporate for about a day. I went back to the metho and it all came together properly. I made sure to wet it less this time. When I got the mix out of the ziplock bag it almost seemed dryish, but as I was kneading it like a ball of dough, it kept changing from wet with dry cracked edges - strange. I rolled it out anyway. The edges cracked but when I used my spatula to reshape it, all the cracks came together like some sort of terminator 2 scenario. It cut very well though, much less sticky than the first mix. It still did 'slump' a bit, so I reckon even less water next time. I apologise for my perhaps very tedious account of my experiments, but I'll keep going regardless. The conclusions I have come to are:Paulownia isn't the best charcoal to use for "charcoal rich stars" as it's too "fluffy"Denatured alcohol and Isopropyl alcohol cannot be interchanged in this instanceMy initial concern regarding using my version of carbon black is causing an issueI'm too impatientAll of the aboveOnly time will tell, if these ever stars dry. It's only been 4 days, so I guess I am being impatient. Thanks for everyone's input and interestCheers.
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