insutama Posted January 29, 2015 Posted January 29, 2015 Is it safe to ball mill magnesium i have a pound of 230mesh magnesium i was wondering how safe it would be to put in the ball mill with lead media to make even finer ? or would i use a harder media like marbles ?
a_bab Posted January 29, 2015 Posted January 29, 2015 Millig metals is unsafe.Milling Mg is very unsafe. You risk to be blinded and have your skin scorched to a crisp. Do a search for Magnesium Milling. Some starting point:http://www.amateurpyro.com/forums/topic/2671-what-to-ball-mill-and-what-not-to-ball-mill/?hl=%2Bmagnesium+%2Baccident&do=findComment&comment=36387
FlaMtnBkr Posted January 29, 2015 Posted January 29, 2015 It is pyrophoric and very dangerous. People do it but do so expecting an accident and take the necessary precautions. I wouldn't even think about it for a long time. Why do you need it finer? That is already pretty small for Mg.
insutama Posted January 29, 2015 Author Posted January 29, 2015 i havent actually got it yet its still in mail but i though 230 mesh was course im not exactly sure how fine this is what would it compair to in grit like shavings from 100 grit sand paper would be what mesh
schroedinger Posted January 29, 2015 Posted January 29, 2015 Normal mg used starts at 20 mesh for flares and 60 mesh for stars, so there is no need for making it finer, it's allready flash mg.
insutama Posted January 29, 2015 Author Posted January 29, 2015 oh so lower mesh is smaller or bigger ? im confused because i looked a conversion site and it was say that its opposite to grit from like sand paper
FlaMtnBkr Posted January 29, 2015 Posted January 29, 2015 (edited) Mesh are the number of holes per inch in a screen. So a bigger number will have more holes in an inch so they have to get smaller as the number increases. Smaller holes means smaller particles that fall through it. Then there is a convention that looks at what falls thru the screen and what is retained on top of it. So -20+40 mesh would be what passes a 20 mesh screen but it's retained on a 40 mesh. The negative means it passes, the positive means it's retained. Microns is an actual measurement so the smaller the number, the smaller the particle. Edited January 29, 2015 by FlaMtnBkr
dagabu Posted January 29, 2015 Posted January 29, 2015 oh so lower mesh is smaller or bigger ? im confused because i looked a conversion site and it was say that its opposite to grit from like sand paper No, the "mesh" for a sandpaper grit is the same as the "mesh" for chems. Why on earth would you want to reduce the mesh size of Mg?
Bobosan Posted January 29, 2015 Posted January 29, 2015 Is it safe to ball mill magnesium i have a pound of 230mesh magnesium i was wondering how safe it would be to put in the ball mill with lead media to make even finer ? or would i use a harder media like marbles ? The magnesium will eat up your cheaper lead media very quickly. Even hardened lead does not do well. Stay away from the damned marbles!!! and concentrate on one thing at a time...like making good black powder.
MrB Posted January 29, 2015 Posted January 29, 2015 For milling metals, ceramic milling media, or stainless steel balls seam to be the way to go. That said, i use stainless steel for milling magnalium. Mostly since i had access to stainless steel ball bearings. I'm not sure it's your best alternative, since it might be hard to verify that your ball bearings are indeed none sparking, but so far it's been ok. Mill, let it sit, and open it, "much" later to let air in. then do it again.B!
insutama Posted January 29, 2015 Author Posted January 29, 2015 like i said i dont have the magnesium yet so i dont even know the size i must of went to a shitty site because it converted 230 mesh to like 70 grit anyway ill stop bugging you guys and just read other posts for now as it seems i have offended alot of you. I HAVE NO INTENTION ON MAKING FLASH i promise that i am concentrating on one thing at a time and thats making black powder but i still have questions on my mind that i wanted to know the ancwers doesnt mean that im gonna follow all them threw anyway i appreciate all the advice i have gotten from these forums ill lay low for awhile and maybe only ask the questions i cant find anywere else thats related only to one topic thanks again for your patience with me
Carbon796 Posted January 29, 2015 Posted January 29, 2015 No, the "mesh" for a sandpaper grit is the same as the "mesh" for chems. Why on earth would you want to reduce the mesh size of Mg? Because he wants to make flash . . . 1
BurritoBandito Posted January 29, 2015 Posted January 29, 2015 Insutama, there is an article on fireworking written by Lloyd Sponenburgh entitled "Please help me! I've been burned". I don't know if you're familiar with Lloyd, but he is very well known for his contributions to pyro ball milling, and is the author of the book many pyros consider the ball mill bible. In the article he describes an accident he had while trying to mix magnesium with cab-o-sil using a ball mill with no media. Long story short he the magnesium ignited, and he was burned very badly. I do not recommend that you attempt to mill any metals as they can become pyrophoric under the right (wrong) conditions. Magnesium is especially dangerous because it burns at such a ferociously high temperature.
insutama Posted January 29, 2015 Author Posted January 29, 2015 Burritobandito this is exactly why I asked this question thanks for sharing that with me I now know not to mill metals in the future thank you
Col Posted January 29, 2015 Posted January 29, 2015 Theres not a lot of comps that require magnesium, what are you planning to make with it?
insutama Posted January 29, 2015 Author Posted January 29, 2015 it came as a free gift with a other order of mine so ill probally just hang on to it till I learn how to make stars im sure one day I'll have use for it
Ubehage Posted January 29, 2015 Posted January 29, 2015 it came as a free gift with a other order of mine so ill probally just hang on to it till I learn how to make stars im sure one day I'll have use for itMy guess is, that you will propably hold on to it for a long while.Magnesium is, as many have pointed out, quite dangerous. It reacts with Water/moisture, and will burn quite happily once ignited. Magnalium is used in more compositions, and I think I have read somewhere that Magnalium is a little bit more safe than Magnesium, and can be used instead of Magnesium in many cases.However, "a little bit" is up for interpretation, and might not even be noticable...
FlaMtnBkr Posted January 30, 2015 Posted January 30, 2015 (edited) I think Lloyd was around 8 feet away when he had his accident. The flame didn't even get him but the intense radiant heat and UV was enough to get him. And look up 'pyrophoric' and it will help explain things. Also, I doubt anyone is mad with you. Edited January 30, 2015 by FlaMtnBkr
taiwanluthiers Posted January 30, 2015 Posted January 30, 2015 milling metal is not for the faint of heart. It takes a long time and the metal can ignite causing VERY hot fires, and if you are anywhere near it, VERY bad burns. Ever seen Mg strip burn? Now imagine Mg powder burning at a much faster rate.
insutama Posted January 30, 2015 Author Posted January 30, 2015 This is true I wonder how then get the aluminum so fine then or is al safer to ball mill?
FlaMtnBkr Posted January 30, 2015 Posted January 30, 2015 Aluminum is probably a little safer than magnesium but still very dangerous. When metals are milled they are broken down and fresh metal is exposed and the protective layer of oxide is broken down. When the powder is exposed to air the oxygen starts to oxidize the metal which is an exothermic process and releases heat. It can quickly get hot enough to ignite which is a problem. Especially if still in a sealed container. Lloyd S. was milling with cab-o-sil (SiO2) as an anti cake. Normally fumed silica is fairly inert but magnesium is reactive enough it stripped the oxygen and used it as an oxidizer. Anyone who ever tries to mill metal basically assumes it will ignite and takes the necessary safety measures so any damage will be contained and minimized. At least if they are smart they do because it is only time before there is an accident in a hobby setting. This should be done with all pyro activities because it is a dangerous hobby.
Arthur Posted January 30, 2015 Posted January 30, 2015 1/ 230 mesh magnesium is fine enough for any fine purpose and too fine for some things, Store it carefully! 2/ Simply don't mill metals or ram comps with metal content. 3/ NEVER use marbles for media, things will go wrong.
Ubehage Posted January 30, 2015 Posted January 30, 2015 This is true I wonder how then get the aluminum so fine then or is al safer to ball mill?Inside the container, alu is somewhat safe. The real danger is in the moment of opening.I don't know if Magnesium behaves the same way when sealed.
insutama Posted January 30, 2015 Author Posted January 30, 2015 Okay thanks for explaining this makes total sense
schroedinger Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) There are basically two ways to get the fi e metall powder1st. Atomizing process.2nd. Milling.Both Mg andl can easyle reduced to a useable powder at home using a blender. Fill the blender with the metall you want to powder (either turning or foil) and add 1 cup of water. Now blend down the mass. If you used foil you will need to add it a couple times.Al will take some time to really react with the water, but it can easly and then there is only one thing left to do, flush out the whole blender with a lot of water.Al should leave the blender at the same day. Put the Water into a big bucket and flush out the blender with some water. Now stirr up the whole bucket. Let it sit for 10 minutes decant of the water (into a 2nd bucket), repeat after 30 min, 1 hour and 2 hours 1 and 2 days.Always spread out the metall at the ground of the bucket onto newspaper lined screens. Screen at least twice during drying. This way you will end up with a couple easy and fast to size fractions.For Mg it's the same, but make sure that mg leaves the lender within an hour. Pour the Mg into a coffe filter or better onto a buchner funnel, to get rid of most of the water. Now either wash with ethanol or acetone (recommended if you started with oiled turnings) and/or screenno to newspaper lined screens.With this method you will be left metall ranging fro firefly to flash grade powder. The ammount of each depemds on the blending time. If you have too much coarse powder left over, just blend it again. Edited January 31, 2015 by schroedinger
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