taiwanluthiers Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) I'm not even sure making bp for musket is recommended... as you'll have to fine tune them for consistency, otherwise accuracy will suffer. Fireworks aren't all that concerned with accuracy. If you want to do this to save money, forget it. You may have to make several batches and probably test the gun remotely to make sure it is actually safe to fire (like won't blow up on you because it burns much faster than commercial). Then when you make another batch, you'll have to do it all over again unless you can use the SAME chemical (down to the charcoal cooking time), SAME mill time, SAME press density, and SAME granulation. It is not for the faint of heart. If it's for SHTF situation I guess even riced powder will do but for any quality shooting, you must have consistent powder. Go with commercial bp or pyrodex. I might add that if OP's friend must make the bp from Skylighter's chemicals, it is all the reason more that he shouldn't be making it for his rifle. Edited January 4, 2015 by taiwanluthiers
Eagle66 Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 (edited) I'm not even sure making bp for musket is recommended... as you'll have to fine tune them for consistency, otherwise accuracy will suffer. Fireworks aren't all that concerned with accuracy. If you want to do this to save money, forget it. You may have to make several batches and probably test the gun remotely to make sure it is actually safe to fire (like won't blow up on you because it burns much faster than commercial). Then when you make another batch, you'll have to do it all over again unless you can use the SAME chemical (down to the charcoal cooking time), SAME mill time, SAME press density, and SAME granulation. It is not for the faint of heart. If it's for SHTF situation I guess even riced powder will do but for any quality shooting, you must have consistent powder. Go with commercial bp or pyrodex. I might add that if OP's friend must make the bp from Skylighter's chemicals, it is all the reason more that he shouldn't be making it for his rifle. I'd like to address these points, starting from the bottom and working back. For the last sentence, +1. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER make BP for another unless you have a mfg license. That's just asking for trouble. OK, he's your friend, but his lawyer isn't. Consistency isn't that hard. Screening = same granulation. Press gauge = same density. Timer = Same mill time. Coal is the big variable. The big boys have the same problem. They solve it by process control and, most importantly, blending. We can too. I have a big pile of willow out back, harvested at the same place on the same day. By the time I get done with it, I'll have several 5-gal buckets of airfloat that I've processed the same way and blended into one batch. If you make your's like that, or buy a quantity in bulk, all you have to do is weigh it out accurately, as with the other ingredients. As far as safety in your guns, if it's BP made with only KNO3, cc, & S, it's safe to shoot in a sound firearm. It's nearly impossible to overload small arms with BP. When I was younger & stupider, I fired my .58 musket with the barrel half full of fffg under a 458 gr minie ball. As the recoil knocked me flat on my butt, the only harm done was to my shoulder and dignity. (That 6-ft long flame was awesome, though. Can I count it as my first gerb?) Anyway, he'll have to fine-tune the load for accuracy no matter the source of the BP. Saving money? It costs me $5 to make a pound of powder, as compared to $20/lb for commercial. After a year of that savings, my mill, press, screens, etc will be all paid for. Then that $15/lb difference will pay for a bunch of shooting/pyro stuff. I find that the economy, fun, and satisfaction of shooting my own BP far makes up for all the little hassles. And, if there's a SHTF scenario, that's one less detail I'll have to worry about. Edited January 5, 2015 by Eagle66 1
taiwanluthiers Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 Ok, I'm not sure if certain black powder subs can be overloaded like bp... for example I just found out there's this thing called Black Horn 209. No idea what it is but some have said it's basically nitrocellulose (it is nothing like Pyrodex or 777)... if that's the case then it would be possible to overpressure them by overloading. But it's fine if you live out in the country to make your own bp, just that you can't legally transport it (sporting exemption only applies to commercial bp). But you'd have to make a larger amount of it to develop consistency. Then finally I know pyros deal with this all the time, but it's SCARY how sensitive bp can be! And when it does go off, BOOM!! At least smokeless powder when unconfined just burns somewhat slowly. I just wonder if it's possible to make your own pyrodex rather than bp... assuming anyone could even figure out what it's made of.
Eagle66 Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 I have heard that Pyrodex and the other subs can indeed be overloaded, but I'll never make those tests, because BP subs are not welcome my home for any reason. When used as directed, I'm sure it's every bit as safe as the powders I reload into the ammo for my modern guns, but when shooting BP, I'm somewhat of a purist. I'll hang my muzzle loading guns up on the wall before I feed them that stuff. Like I said, I'm a purist. Making a nitrocellulose based propellant at home crosses my line of risks I would take for a hobby. Maybe it can be done with no more risk than BP, but I'll let someone else verify that. Besides, I'm sure that many other BP shooters & pyros will join me in testifying that smelling BP smoke is good for your health. I'll test that claim as often as possible.
taiwanluthiers Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 What's wrong with blackpowder subs? I think from what I read is that pyrodex and 777 are all carbon based fuel, meaning they use charcoal or sugar as fuel and an oxidizer such as potassium nitrate (I think pyrodex use perchlorate). However I think only blackhorn 209 is nitrocellulose based because some states ban them from muzzleloading season...
Eagle66 Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 I'm sure that there's nothing wrong with them as such. I first smelled the smoke in the company of some very serious Civil War Reenactors, and if there are any people more dedicated to tradition and detail, I've yet to meet them. Their standards rubbed off on me. Hell, if I brought a can of sub near my guns, they would roll over in their graves. Then they'd come and haunt me.
pyroman2498 Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 all smokeless powders are usually Nitrocellulose, and shooting them can burst the barrel or worse , they are meant for Bullet reloading not muzzle loaders. Anyways Stay Safe and Stay Green,
taiwanluthiers Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 I heard from some people saying nitrocellulose was originally intended as black powder substitutes, and surely there are ways to make low pressure loads with smokeless powder (what do you think shotguns use??). But then again, there are so many different types of smokeless powder that it would be really easy for the average person to mess up and triple load their muzzleloading rifle by accident, with disastrous result. Of course BP is safer since it is supposedly just about impossible to overload them There has to be ways to use smokeless powder in a ML gun, with the right loading data and exact loading by weight of very specific type of powder (and of course the ballistics will be no different than Goex, except that it will be easier to clean. Think about this: improvised shotguns that consists of nothing but 3/4" gas pipes have been made before (there is even a version that is simply 2 metal pipes, place the shotgun round in one pipe, the other closed pipe contains a nail. To fire just slam both parts together), and since shotguns are relatively low pressure, there are fewer problems. That could just be the idea behind Blackhorn 209. It is basically nitrocellulose that has been modified to work in standard bp powder measure. By the way I'm in no way saying that anyone should even think about using smokeless powder (other than Blackhorn 209) in their ML other than Savage 10ML, however I do think that it should be possible and perhaps tests can be done (mythbuster style, fire the gun in a safe place remotely) to determine a safe load. And even if you have a Savage 10ML you must be careful and weight your charges carefully, using only the powder Savage says to use.
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