Making BP for a Musket?

[MWJ]

I need to make some good BP for a musket. I know it can't be too fast so if anyone here has some ideas that has done this for their musket please give me some ideas.

Thanks, Mike

[Eagle66]

BP really can't be too fast for shooting. You just adjust your load the same as you would with commercial powders. I shoot my powder with all my muzzle loaders, from a .31 Pocket Pistol to a .58 "Zouave". Flinters and percussion.

 

Anyway, here's how I do it:

 

75% Black Willow charcoal

15% KNO₃

10% Sulfur

 

I've heard that Paulowina or Alder coal is better, but I haven't tried those yet.

 

Ball mill, the time depending on how big your mill is. I do 450g / 90g / 60g in my 1 Gallon size mill for about 2-1/2 hours with 1/2 gal(~30#) of .500 hard lead ball media.

 

After milling, you will get the most consistent results by corning & screening the BP to size. -10 + 20 for ffg(2fg), -20 +40 for fffg(3fg), -40 +70 for ffffg(4fg). Those screen numbers may seem a bit arbitrary, but when I screened commercial powders, that's pretty much how they came through, not counting fines. YMMV.

 

Shooting over a chrono, my results have been within 10% of Goex.

Edited January 2, 2015 by Eagle66

[taiwanluthiers]

I think you may also want a large batch too because they have to be consistent, otherwise your accuracy will suffer. This is something commercial bp are made for.

[Arthur]

Make a moderate batch very accurately. mill and corn it than try it. You may need to adjust the charge weight til you find an optimum. After that you can either make another batch as accurately, or do comparative speed tests and mix fast and slow batches of powder to always have a consistent powder for shooting.

According to your gun you will probably need 4F or 6F or 7F but consistency batch to batch is important.

[pyroman2498]

to set your self up for success ,here are my thoughts

1.consistant run time for your mill ( buy a light timer or a hydroponic timer from lows or a local grow shop if you have one )

2.make sure everything is dry ( moisture content can effect the burn rate of your BP so try to keep it with a descant )

3. make sure you use the consistent quality chemicals ( if your buying it buy the 50lb bag try to keep it like that and make sure its not crap grade stuff , I suggest http://www.ihaveadotcom.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=72_128&products_id=492

4.make sure you use a consistent size granule( the size of the granule of the BP will cause a difference in burn rate, if you screen your BP make sure it goes through that same screen every time till you need to change the BP)

 

the key is to be very consistent with your process and to make sure your safe while your doing it

 

Stay Safe and Stay Green

 

~Steven

[dagabu]

I will just mirror what everyone is already saying: Be consist ant across the process and grain sizes. You really HAVE to puck and corn your BP for a musket though, the pressing will crush the grains if you dont and your shots will be off.

 

I suggest that you make enough to last you for years, make a few or several batches and mix the powder together, whet and press the pucks, corn them and size the grains. Use EVERYTHING that is not exactly the size you want in pyro for lift, burst etc but keep the BP for the musket separate.

 

Put the BP in a real BP can and store it in there, you can only legally transport that can (store-bought BP) when your musket is in your vehicle.

[Bobosan]

Put the BP in a real BP can and store it in there, you can only legally transport that can (store-bought BP) when your musket is in your vehicle.

 

That doesn't sound right.

 

So I'm shopping at Bass Pro and decide to purchase a pound of powder. Wait! Don't have my musket with me, can't do that.

 

Really?

[dagabu]

Sadly, REALLY.

 

This is perhaps one of the single most debated subject about black powder there is. Technically, the arm, canon or other AFT accepted device must be present in order to prove intent. As this is not my rule and I have no dog in this fight, I suggest calling your local ATF agent or investigator and simply asking them about how they feel about it. Now, the excerpt below may sound fine to you and gosh darn it! You have rights! The issue is that the burden of proof as to the intent (Intended to be used) falls squarely on YOUR shoulders and should you fail to prove this adequately at the time you are found with your can of BP in your custody, I assure you, you will be charged with explosives transportation without a license.

 

Once you post bail, you can prove the ownership of an arm to defend yourself but the very simple fact of just having a cheap old CVA BP pistol in the car with you will keep you out of jail.

 

Another thing to consider is this: Several states now allow your cell phone, lap top and/or tablet to be searched on the spot. WHAT?! Yupper, and what if you have your Passfire, Fireworking or APC account up and running when they do? No BP arm in your car? You my friend are going to spend the night in the cross bar resort and they may even have enough on you to pull a search warrant.

 

Again, I have no dog in this fight, I dont want any of you to think you can buy a can at the store or go hunting without taking the proper measures to protect yourself adequately.

 

From the Orange Book:

15. Is black powder subject to regulation under

Federal explosives laws?

Black powder is an explosive material for purposes of Federal

explosives laws and regulations. However, the law exempts from

regulation commercially manufactured black powder in quantities

not exceeding 50 pounds (as well as percussion caps, safety and

pyrotechnic fuses, quills, quick and slow matches, and friction

primers) intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or

cultural purposes in antique firearms as defined in 18 U.S.C.

921(a)(16) or in antique devices exempted from the term

“destructive device” in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(4).

Edited January 2, 2015 by dagabu

[taiwanluthiers]

I'm not even sure storing your home made bp in a commercial can is enough. Perhaps store bought bp has tracer chemicals (so if they are used in a crime, they can identify who made it), and if the make up of the powder in question doesn't match what it says on the can, well that's another issue there. Exemption for bp is only made for commercial, not home made bp.

 

But could there be laws against having a bp pistol in your car without a concealed handgun license (does CHL requirement only extend to regular, and not antique firearms?)

[Bobosan]

 

Sadly, REALLY.

 

This is perhaps one of the single most debated subject about black powder there is. Technically, the arm, canon or other AFT accepted device must be present in order to prove intent. As this is not my rule and I have no dog in this fight, I suggest calling your local ATF agent or investigator and simply asking them about how they feel about it. Now, the excerpt below may sound fine to you and gosh darn it! You have rights! The issue is that the burden of proof as to the intent (Intended to be used) falls squarely on YOUR shoulders and should you fail to prove this adequately at the time you are found with your can of BP in your custody, I assure you, you will be charged with explosives transportation without a license.

 

Once you post bail, you can prove the ownership of an arm to defend yourself but the very simple fact of just having a cheap old CVA BP pistol in the car with you will keep you out of jail.

 

Another thing to consider is this: Several states now allow your cell phone, lap top and/or tablet to be searched on the spot. WHAT?! Yupper, and what if you have your Passfire, Fireworking or APC account up and running when they do? No BP arm in your car? You my friend are going to spend the night in the cross bar resort and they may even have enough on you to pull a search warrant.

 

Again, I have no dog in this fight, I dont want any of you to think you can buy a can at the store or go hunting without taking the proper measures to protect yourself adequately.

 

From the Orange Book:

15. Is black powder subject to regulation under

Federal explosives laws?

Black powder is an explosive material for purposes of Federal

explosives laws and regulations. However, the law exempts from

regulation commercially manufactured black powder in quantities

not exceeding 50 pounds (as well as percussion caps, safety and

pyrotechnic fuses, quills, quick and slow matches, and friction

primers) intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or

cultural purposes in antique firearms as defined in 18 U.S.C.

921(a)(16) or in antique devices exempted from the term

“destructive device” in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(4).

 

 

I disagree.

 

I'm carrying a one pound container (NOT 50 pounds) of BP in an original store bought can for use in my BP firearm (sporting and recreational use) that is located at home in my safe.

 

That does not run afoul of the stated Federal regs on BP and is specifically exempted.

 

Have the same can in the car along with pyrotechnic devices is possibly another matter.

[marks265]

"Technically, the arm, canon or other AFT accepted device must be present in order to prove intent."

 

REALLY?

I've bought a few cans of powder and never had an issue. I still don't believe its an issue today either. If I by a can of Goex via mail order, do I have to send them my 75 cal first? I THINK NOT!

 

Cabelas says:

 

Powder/Primers/Percussion Caps:

Warning: Residents of Washington, DC, MA, NJ, and NY, please check your local laws for restrictions before ordering gunpowder products, primers, or percussion caps.

 

Track of the Wolf (In Minnesota) says:

 

"We ship black powder by UPS ground, to 48 states. Club Officers may distribute powder to members and guests. Heads of families may distribute powder to family members and friends. You may not engage in the business of stocking and reselling black powder, unless you have a Federal Explosives License, available from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms. They require a license, simple record keeping, an approved storage box (inexpensive Type 4 indoor magazine), and annual inspections. Certain areas require commercial zoning."

 

You don't have to be present to buy powder and neither does your cannon. I think track of the Wolf sums it up pretty good. Yep I'm on the disagreement side of it too.

[dagabu]

Hey guys, No dog in the fight, this stuff is from the Orange book.

[Bobosan]

Dave, it just didn't make common sense that your sporting or recreational use BP firearm needed to be in your vehicle in order to transport. Transporting would be another Fed department anyway. Like DOT perhaps?

 

https://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/Explosives/Industry/open-letter-black-powder.pdf

open-letter-black-powder.pdf

[pyroman2498]

I would just like to state that its not just federal but can also run into state laws , so every event goes by a case to case basis , and if you drive across state lines or the Canadian border or what ever the case may be , it will vary .

 

so to be on the safe side ill stay out of giving my opinion and just stick with what I said and continue what the topic was about

 

when you fire your musket make sure not to put to much powder in if you don't know the power of your powder, start small and work your way up till you get the results you want

and I think this is obvious but I should state this anyways , Don't fire smokeless powder out of a BP firearm , lots of BP firearms where only meant to withstand BP and not smokeless powder. I've seen reports of BP guns exploding on people because they used smokeless powder instead of BP.

 

Anyways

 

Stay Safe and Stay Green

 

~Steven

[marks265]

Dave, it just didn't make common sense that your sporting or recreational use BP firearm needed to be in your vehicle in order to transport. Transporting would be another Fed department anyway. Like DOT perhaps?

 

https://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/Explosives/Industry/open-letter-black-powder.pdf

People who are involved with fireworks get pretty paranoid over this because they are wary of the orange book. The link Bobosan posted shows the 3 points in question. Without a license you can't make it and store it, so it must be commercial. If you make it and use it the same day without transporting it you would be legal. But local permits would apply if needed. Again you can't have over 50 pounds. And It needs to be used as intended, which is not fireworks related. If the people in blue come knocking at your door over the subject then you should be able to show your use. Heck, your buddy could own the cannon and he lets you use it. If you have no hardware to produce but you have fireworks mortars and shell casing, then I bet you would lose the battle for innocence. Usually if it were to get this far something is awry to get to this point.

 

As far as making powder for a musket, most every thing is pretty well covered. The biggest thing I can give you besides repeatable is to control density as much as possible in your powder grain when you make it. When you first make a puck of gun powder it can be measured and weighed for density. By doing this you will achieve repeatability in regard to density. Using different types of charcoal would give you your biggest variance. And when you charge your musket. When the powder first takes fire it will burn from that end. How well you pack it and the powder grain used will give you variance. I know of shooters who have had vary strict ways of using their ramrods.

 

Also Pyroman2498 brings up another good point. It is very easy to make powder that is much more reactive than commercial powder. As a base line it would be suggested that you get a can of commercial and shoot through a chronograph then use your powder to compare. Of course you would want to use reduced loads when starting out with your powder. This is a good idea with commercial powder as well.

 

I'm guessing you just want to make some powder and do some shooting at first, so some of what we have mentioned may be a little much. I got sick of cleaning mine so intently I hide it now!

 

Mark

[taiwanluthiers]

By the way some bp guns, Savage ML10 for example are DESIGNED to use smokeless powder, and it offers advantages to bp (such as not having to clean it so much), however when using smokeless you must be very careful in charge strength because smokeless powder aren't so forgiving to having a few extra grains of powder, it would overpressure if overloaded. Though I read that the Savage ML-10 has been discontinued but I can't be sure... it's selling on gunbrokers for like 700 dollars at the very least (MSRP is around 450 dollars)

[Arthur]

An instant identifier of home made powder is the lead content.

[Bobosan]

MWJ, do you have a press available? As many have said above, pressing and then corning the pucks.

[MWJ]

Thanks Dag, As you know I do know how to make good fast BP so I guess I just need to know if Skylighters Charcoal is good for this. and I need to know if FFFG is what I need to corn it too? I need to use all Skylighters chems because that's where he got them from. The friend I'm helping is very smart, he just doesn't have any practical experience in making BP and I want to make sure he stays safe and legal. I do have a few original BP containers I can give him. He only needs about 2 lbs, so far. So I'll use the 75/15/10/5 formula with Skylighters chems, then mill it until it clumps up (7hrs for me) then make pucks and corn it with water and size it with my screens. Right?

 

Thanks everyone and please lets not have a debate about this. The biggest question is how to make good bp for a musket.

[Mumbles]

I have my doubts if skylighter charcoal will do the trick. Ideally you'd want something hotter. Goex is reported to use maple. Some of the european powders (KIK) are reported to use alder buckthorn. I've heard that Elephant/Diamondback use Embauba.

 

As far as size, others will have more experience than I. I'd look up loading charts and go with whatever they suggest. Remember to use the sporting grade sizing charts (Fg's) instead of the blasting grade sizing charts we normally work with (FA's).

 

If you're corning, you probably don't need 5% dextrin. The compression provides good resilience to the grains themselves. Some don't use any binder. I'd be more comfortable with maybe 2% just for good measure though. If you get some that doesn't fit his needs, I'm sure you can find a way to repurpose it for pyro.

[Arthur]

Sorry but for an application where so little is needed but the quality is paramount, I'd be looking for some known good charcoal. BBQ rocks are useless. I'd strongly recommend using either willow or Alder even if you have to cook some yourself. Typically a kilo of wood makes a kilo of powder. When pressing and corning there is no need for binders, even 5% moisture may be too much, if you have 10% moisture then you risk the moisture oozing out of the puck press. Maybe you should consider whether the firearm needs a glazed powder,

[MWJ]

Have 40 lbs of Pine charcoal that makes some very fast bp. Do you think it would be better then Skylighter's charcoal?

[Mumbles]

Without a doubt. I assume it's one of the cleaner, less sappy, varieties of pine. Commercial BP has a lot more research and development into their processes and product. Have your friend keep an eye on the fouling in his musket. It's not something we really have to worry about much in pyro.

[MWJ]

My Pine Charcoal is Ponderosa Pine. Mumbles, I'll tell him.

Thanks everyone!

[MrB]

I'm not sure here, but... Isn't consistency more important then best performance?

What i'm aiming at... Isn't a 100% reliable source for identical charcoal better, even if you have to use 5% more BP to achieve the final goal? (round target speed)

 

I'm thinking wood from some store, the ever so popular pet bedding wood chips for example, or even Skylighters ready made charcoal, which both should be more reliable then wood from the surrounding nature which has a little different qualities depending on the season when it's taken of the tree, so to speak.

 

Of course, different qualities of charcoal in the BP can easily be compensated for by the musket-user, simply take the new batch of BP, mix it with the old, and recalibrate the charge every time when making new BP. If they don't mind that, then just use what ever is best & available at the time.

 

Different thing here. Commercial BP is polished, and coated with graphite. The graphite, does it act as a lubricant in the musket? In that case one might want to add it to the home made stuff as well. I'm not sure coating it would be the easiest way of getting it there, but then again, if you stick 0.5% graphite in to the BP composition, your going to slow it down... Well, a little.

Anyways, just thinking here. I got no experience with muskets, or BP guns.

B!