The "flash powder approach" - or why the community has to distance itself more emphatically from certain practices

[mikeee]

Admiral,

 

I can only assume you have serious concerns with the website and potential liability surrounding the free exchange of information

pertaining to 70/30 production and other risky practices in the art. Would it be possible to screen membership to have access to

this type of information? Or a private message board for these types of discussions. I am not sure how the legal system works in

your country when it deals with liability and providing information that may cause someone harm. It seems as though it is just as

easy to do a Google search or YouTube search and discover information such as 70/30 and other volatile mixes. This website has

always been a value for all of its members and a place to discuss the pyro art form. I hate to say it but perhaps you should make

this a "pay to play" website and use the credit card transaction to verify each members age. That is still no guarantee that someone

of legal age still won't make a mistake or involve themselves with producing illegal pyro goods. Maybe you could qualify a member

by the number of posts they have made to allow them access to questionable topics like 70/30 this would exclude the newbies that

join just to find out how to make these volatile mixes. We could also just ignore questions pertaining to 70/30 and let them go somewhere

else for this information.

[schroedinger]

Admiral,

 

I can only assume you have serious concerns with the website and potential liability surrounding the free exchange of information

pertaining to 70/30 production and other risky practices in the art. Would it be possible to screen membership to have access to

this type of information? Or a private message board for these types of discussions. I am not sure how the legal system works in

your country when it deals with liability and providing information that may cause someone harm. It seems as though it is just as

easy to do a Google search or YouTube search and discover information such as 70/30 and other volatile mixes. This website has

always been a value for all of its members and a place to discuss the pyro art form. I hate to say it but perhaps you should make

this a "pay to play" website and use the credit card transaction to verify each members age. That is still no guarantee that someone

of legal age still won't make a mistake or involve themselves with producing illegal pyro goods. Maybe you could qualify a member

by the number of posts they have made to allow them access to questionable topics like 70/30 this would exclude the newbies that

join just to find out how to make these volatile mixes. We could also just ignore questions pertaining to 70/30 and let them go somewhere

else for this information.

So you are suggesting a seperate forum category like the HE one?

Actually i eould vouch against this, what i see on many sites is a pure discussion about flash with no regards towards risks and safety. On this forum it is different and I'am sure this is the right way, but i would also recommend to have a stronger moderation on topics like ground salutes or pure salut making. If you think back about 2 months we had one big question fromba newbie regarding making ground salutes and a long discussion about to allow it or not, and even some members thought it would be ok to teach how it is done, or this week we got the topic "how to make rocket with explosive head" , no reason to discuss that questin of a 2 post member, just shut it down and leave a message why! These questions aren't in the intention of this forum at all.

After all we got the forum rules and have to think about the fact that this forum is US based, so there is no real reason to put any other laws into charge then US Laws and the forum rules.

[mabuse00]

In other trades, crafts and arts, a teacher or mentor is paired with the new student to help guide them.

That is a problem that we have here in europe. You have to understand that in most countrys there is NO WAY to get legal. Your on the same level as a person running a meth lab. You HAVE TO fly under the radar, it is mandatory!! Just see 50AEs story.

 

When I started RC Modelling and I had my first airplane, ~15 years ago, when you had no Lipos and brushless motors that thing was very heavy for it's power. Mabuchi 550 in direct drive , Sanyo NSCRC batteries...To operate it, one needed a minimum of technical understanding, and concentration. It was very easy to "screw up"! You could not just go on full throttle and climb vertical, like today, where the whole thing is just kids play.

 

So what do poeple always tell you when you start - Go join a club!

 

We have such a club here and it's full of technic freaks, experienced engineers, well skilled craftsmen, guys from the Airbus factory, college professors ect. - a tremdous cluster of knowledge. And in most cases, you are welcomed with open arms, if you need help, there is always somebody there.

 

 

Now think of a person in europe who has "smelled the smoke" - what can he do? The internet is the only way, oh blessed modern times! Yes, all the informations is out there, but basically you are on your own.

 

And think further:

Such people like in the RC Modelling Club - "respected members of the society" as you may call it, which seems to apply to the typical PGI member in the US (I think?) - such people usually dont want to, and even if, are extremely afraid to - violate the rules of our perfect society.

 

To do pyro in my country, you have to be willing to break the law, to violate rules. Even if doing doing so is not necessaryly morally problem.

 

 

Perhaps you americans can understand now why there are so much "boomerz" in relation to "real" pyros in the szene here.

 

 

 

 

Concerning ground salutes, it should be mentioned that guys love them everywhere in the world, and if you outlaw them, like in my country (only about 2g low qulity black powder - lots of paper litter in the streets, no good bang at all, child- and more important - drunk proof), there will be a black market. Same as drugs. If there is demand, it will be served.

 

Apart from the illegally imported stuff from the eastern countrys, who haven't yet adapted stricter laws, some guys decided to start underground businesses.

While easy to manufacture much profit can be made with them, because hot merchandise has it's price.

It's no secret that this guy (or rather group, so much activity from one alone?) calling himself Ultimate Pyro on YT is selling his 200g and larger ground salutes to other guys on YT.

 

There are other channels, likely from the same guy, who promote some spectacular stuff to atract the attention of the scene (and the authorities...I only wonder how they can survive so long, always dodging the long arm of the law - doing this in daylight, for years).

 

Some lil firecrackers your kidz gonna love em:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5jt2XxhV58

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3Upcqg5mbg

 

 

What recently happened in Austria resembles Webb's Bait Farm. An illegal ground salute business blew up.

 

 

Would it be possible to screen membership to have access to this type of information? Or a private message board for these types of discussions

Imho not a good idea. I think this board handles it very good, only I miss a underforum called detritus like on SM. It makes the forum more readable, such topics mostly contain just contain ironic answers and popcorn

talk, giving search hits nobody needs.

 

People will get the information anyway. What got me in starting with pyro and chemistry in general was explosions, and that's what got me in touch with the rest. With open forums people especially in europe can get in touch with the "whole" hobby and you have some chance to "collect" some guys for it.

Also I think the boomer phenomenon (at least here) will gradually die out over time, due to non availability of even the most basic chemicals.

Edited December 14, 2014 by mabuse00

[dagabu]

All conversation which has no vitriol, hate or slander is certainly welcome here even if you adamantly disagree with a person's opinion. The problem as I see it here, is that we have seen, heard of or have read of other people's incidents in which the use of flash has caused injury and or death.

 

We strive to warn others, especially kids as to the innate danger that flash presents to users that don't have the experience or common sense to use safely.

 

It quickly becomes apparent that someone does not have the experience and/or common sense when the first posting they make is about flash, salutes or reports outside of what I think we consider to be fireworks.

[mikeee]

I have seen a number of "experienced" pyro's that thought they were processing 70/30 in a safe manner.

Techniques and safety precautions have evolved over time and a number of "experienced" pyro's have

not picked up on these newer techniques. There are a number of ways to process 70/30 to reduce the risks

involved in the process, maybe someone can direct us to a source of information that contains the most up to

date safety precautions and techniques...........................................there is no one source for this information.

I work in the electrical industry and the safety precautions and techniques have made major improvements

over the last decade. If someone asked me how to make an electrical repair, it would be proper for me to tell

them how to keep themselves safe while working on the electrical system. Proper PPE to wear proper safety

precautions to LOTO the power source, explain the color codes of the wiring and what each one does. Warn them

of possible hazards they may encounter when working around the electrical system. There are thousands of changes

made to the NEC electrical code on each new issue, we are required to review these changes and attend continuing

education and safety training each year to make the trade safer for everyone involved.

 

There are only a finite number of pyro's that can attend the annual PGI convention that has seminars on safety and

proper methods of processing and building pyro articles. A website like this one would be a good place to post the most

up to date safety concerns and processing methods for these newer safer techniques.

 

Is it not the responsibility of the guild to provide direction and precautions in the craft?

[dagabu]

I have seen a number of "experienced" pyro's that thought they were processing 70/30 in a safe manner.

Techniques and safety precautions have evolved over time and a number of "experienced" pyro's have

not picked up on these newer techniques. There are a number of ways to process 70/30 to reduce the risks

involved in the process, maybe someone can direct us to a source of information that contains the most up to

date safety precautions and techniques...........................................there is no one source for this information.

I work in the electrical industry and the safety precautions and techniques have made major improvements

over the last decade. If someone asked me how to make an electrical repair, it would be proper for me to tell

them how to keep themselves safe while working on the electrical system. Proper PPE to wear proper safety

precautions to LOTO the power source, explain the color codes of the wiring and what each one does. Warn them

of possible hazards they may encounter when working around the electrical system. There are thousands of changes

made to the NEC electrical code on each new issue, we are required to review these changes and attend continuing

education and safety training each year to make the trade safer for everyone involved.

 

There are only a finite number of pyro's that can attend the annual PGI convention that has seminars on safety and

proper methods of processing and building pyro articles. A website like this one would be a good place to post the most

up to date safety concerns and processing methods for these newer safer techniques.

 

Is it not the responsibility of the guild to provide direction and precautions in the craft?

 

Yes... For members. I belong to a half dozen professional associations, they have training and books I can only access from them for payment. No difference in my mind.

[mikeee]

so we have a large number of members with various levels of experience in the craft.

Other websites involved in the art provide tutorials and extensive databases and articles on various topics.

The point I was trying to make in the prior post is that technology has changed rapidly and many of the printed

books on the subject are somewhat dated, advances in PPE, and easier safer methods have been developed

to process volatile compounds. A better understanding of conditions required to process these materials are

now understood to help mitigate the risks involved in the processing work area's.

 

Are we saying lets go "Old School" and let everyone go down the road of trial and error? No

Are we here to help each other and try to keep everyone safe? Yes

What are the safety concerns when working with some of these materials? (Sorry I know, but I am not going to share) ????

Every time this topic comes up it reminds me of a political debate.

It still comes down to knowledge, it can be used for the good of society or it can be abused by those that choose to.

Do you want to live in an enlightened world or go back to the dark ages.

Stuffing the Genie back into the bottle is near impossible when he resides on Google and YouTube and various resources.

The only difference is we have a group of educated pyro's with the knowledge versus some good, some bad, some horrible information on the net.

None of us want to be responsible for helping to get someone injured working with these volatile materials.

At the same time shouldn't we try to make everyone aware of safety concerns we all deal with when processing pyro comps.

Most of these safety concerns and precautions carry over to most of the pyro comps we work with each day.

Each year individuals using information from Google and YouTube are injured from not taking proper precautions.

Individuals with an interest in the craft visit this site to learn and engage other people in the art form.

We are in a Catch 22 situation, provide knowledge and safety or retain the knowledge and let them use trail and error.

[Mumbles]

I do see a lot of the points being generated here, and I can get behind many of them. I didn't so much take the original post as a stance against flash or a call to cull the herd. I interpreted it more as a stance that we shouldn't be promoting lazy or half-ass techniques, ideas, and concepts.

 

In the grand scheme of things, I'm not all that old, but I firmly believe a rather traditional learning style. I don't feel that we'll ever make the next great stride in terms of acceptance of our hobby, or a step in terms of quality of product that we can produce without a directed approach. To me, that starts with learning from the basics and gathering a firm understanding of how and why we do things the way we do. This also means learning the basics the right way. I feel in many respects that this last part hasn't really been emphasized as much as it should. There are too many tutorials, and in some cases suggestions from members here, where I feel poor techniques are being instructed and recommended. The ideal situation to me would be to get a basis in the traditional methods (and the how and why), and then from there you can make substitutions or changes in manipulation.

 

It'd be naive to say that the advent of modern materials and tools couldn't offer advantages to our craft. Before we start pasting shells with aerosol contact cement and extruding stars with curable resins, it'd be good to have an idea what the effect should look like in the first place.

 

We all know that even the most advanced and traditional of us still get a little giddy with the thundering boom of a salute. There are plenty of people who will be drawn here with that as their goal. My responsibility as an admin and owner is to make sure a fine line is walked for liability and safety reasons. More importantly as a contributing member I feel it is my responsibility to try to steer them down the right path. Telling them to screw off will just lead them toward more questionable sources if they really are that driven. Giving them step-by-step instructions doesn't do any good either. My personal approach would be to try to guide them down the right path, and suggest they try simpler and safer projects, while also raising reasons that salutes are not the ideal starting point. Some will heed the advice, and some will not.

 

I think the advanced members are guilty of this too. Too many people are too quick to move to flash or whistle or the like to hide their devices faults, rather than taking the time to diagnose and fix problems with materials or processes.

 

A potential solution was offered 6 months ago. Unsurprisingly, I had little to no real interest, volunteers, or progress made. This would be an opportunity to do what we've been talking about.

http://www.amateurpyro.com/forums/topic/9861-youtube-and-tutorials/

 

Keeping this website free is important to me. We rely on donations, and I would pay out of pocket if they didn't cover our yearly expenses (like we did for the first 5-6 years of APC). I would also be in favor of a free openly available source of quality information such as the one suggested above.

[AldoSPyro]

 

 

What recently happened in Austria resembles Webb's Bait Farm. An illegal ground salute business blew up.

 

 

I know the Webb's Bait Farm incident, but what happened in Austria? For those who arent familiar with the bait farm incident, it was an explosion at an illegal m-80 and m-100 factory in the 1980's. They were using the original military formula which contained potassium chlorate , and they were mixing the flash with an electric drill hooked up to a bucket! Anyways what resulted were dismembered bodies flying through the air and a massive explosion, not fun shit. Mr.Webb was not at the farm at the time of the incident, and he survived but was sent to jail for a long time.

Edited December 15, 2014 by AldoSPyro

[ddewees]

Pics/video or it didn't happen...

[uncrichie]

I know the Webb's Bait Farm incident, but what happened in Austria? For those who arent familiar with the bait farm incident, it was an explosion at an illegal m-80 and m-100 factory in the 1980's. They were using the original military formula which contained potassium chlorate , and they were mixing the flash with an electric drill hooked up to a bucket! Anyways what resulted were dismembered bodies flying through the air and a massive explosion, not fun shit. Mr.Webb was not at the farm at the time of the incident, and he survived but was sent to jail for a long time.

 

For those who may be interested http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benton_fireworks_disaster There is also a first hand account out there on the internet of an investigative coroner and one of his students who were present at the scene for a full investigation. If you come across that story it is quite gruesome but a very interesting read!

[ddewees]

Wow, if that Wikipedia account is even half accurate... that's unbelievable! Surprised he only got ten years (concurrent), he must have ratted on all his customers.

[marks265]

There's a lot of stuff to grab at in this thread, that is for sure. It leads to a lot of mental roaming where you will never find the perfect world. The relentless unscrupulous, when found, is always ousted. While those that rethink their actions may continue. We have to give people a chance but let them be aware of who we are and what we're about. That is how we protect the community. In a more immediate community as this forum I might suggest that newbs be limited to the newb section until some time passes to show their intent. This would be a compromise to a subscription site. We all know that with enough searching on-line a boomer can be a boomer with or without our help. Once good intent is established than full access as we know it now can be had.

 

A compromise would be to have a section geared to ground devices and small aerials along with the newb section. But I am sure this would require more moderation. Another thought that would work well for USA based people is that if the individual is known to be involved with a guild access would be granted.

 

Once a person gets situated with fire working there will 1000 ideas on each manipulation and that can't be moderated past the basics and safety concerns. Tutorials are a person's view of a project, the viewer may or may not agree and this would not help the new comer and create confusion. With that said it comes to mind that the newbs would need access to many of the other forums as well. Thinking out loud maybe instead we want to reserve the pyrotechnics forum for the more knowledgable and split black powder rockets and high power rocket up accordingly.

 

I guess what I'm trying to do is to come up with a compromise between a free site and a pay site where the new comer has to put in their time or prove their worth as a pyro. And of course keeping it a free site. Proving their worth would be a moderator duty where parameters are chosen or decided upon, one way or another. Even such as a written pm message explaining their worth such as the HE forum format.

 

We're trying to fry a pretty big fish here when trying to protect this forum and people contributing. So this was my trout

 

Mark

[gregh]

Here ddewees, this has been posted before. It's a first hand account of the aftermath of the bait farm. It's a great read for anyone contemplating making M80s.

 

http://www.jeffersonbass.com/excerpt_beyond_the_body_farm.html

[AldoSPyro]

Can someone tell me what happend in Austria?

[ddewees]

I'm not sure what's more disturbing...

The explosives disaster, or the creepy people who work at The Body Farm.

[calebkessinger]

Awe man... locked the other thread!! I was gonna say..

Maybe he's a copper!! eh.

Sorry poor sense of humor.

 

I really think most people who post stupid stuff like that are just trying to get a rise out of someone. Or maybe they really are mentally ill.........

I saw a grown man last year with the side of his face and shoulders burnt pretty badly who said it was from kicking a gas can that was on fire!!!

I do forget... people are crazy!

[dagabu]

No kidding all, I submitted a donation of my body to the body farm back in 2000, if interested, here is the link to the packet you need to fill out and submit.

 

It's actually not creepy at all, the findings are invaluable in forensic study and crime fighting.

Edited December 16, 2014 by dagabu

[stix]

I take this discussion on a philosophical point of view, in regard to knowledge and freedom.

If we restrict knowledge, then freedom is at risk and then we succumb to totalitarianism.

[otto]

@ stix - Amen Brutha!

 

From a "noob" POV visiting here slowed me down. Came in with all kinds of preconception and really no knowledge. When you see people that are established in the hobby/business, are well respected and knowledgeable run into problem it makes one pause.... No kewl bomber here, sure I like salutes but know at my age, there's more to it than that. Always enjoyed a good show so in my "golden years" this was kind of a natural path.

 

I, for one, appreciate the depth of knowledge here and the willingness to share. Thanks to all here for your time, know how, opinions and acceptance. I could have found a very wrong path but I'm not that gullible, even so.....

 

In my work I have to deal with lots of folks that aren't "schooled" even though they have been in the business for years. The challenge is to share the science and bring them along so they can apply their old school experience with the science basics. Not too different than what you folks have done with the transients that wander in here. I was one and thanks again.

[oldspark]

Almost all the accidents (maybe all) that happen are because people did not follow the best practices in place so we add even more to cover the dumb asses.

I worked in the electrical field for over over 30 years and we did fine with out some of the newer rules because we had common sense, many new saftey guide lines that are needed but many came about because of the same type of dumb ass methods of work practices.

[mikeee]

Oldspark,

 

Years ago I worked on energized high voltage systems, today I have a full set of high voltage insulated tools collecting dust that I will never be able to use again. Some of the new regulations have gone a little too far and are now creating a greater risk because we are not able to work on these systems until they are completely de-energized, this has led to postponing repairs until a total outage, which ends up being months or years. Until that time we are exposed to walking by this equipment each day knowing it needs repair and is slowly or quickly breaking down. Big Badda Boom!

[taiwanluthiers]

I thought you have to work on power lines energized because it would mean city wide outage if you shut the power down, however they have procedures on that.

 

But it doesn't do much for working close to ground...

[mikeee]

Taiwan,

 

Not high line work, industrial facility with various high, medium and low voltage systems. 161,000V, 13,800V, 4160V 480V, 277V, 120V etc.

We have over 4000 pieces of rotating equipment from 1HP up to 5000HP.

[oldspark]

mikeee

I know exactly what you mean, was an electrician in a processing plant and then worked on wind turbines until I retired, some of the things thay had us doing 16 years ago was crazy and now they have over corrected because of burnt turbines, falling people (some on fire falling), turbines falling over, blown up components ect.

Some of the new regulations from OSHA are probably needed (dumb ass syndrome) but hamper much of the work.