The "flash powder approach" - or why the community has to distance itself more emphatically from certain practices

[AdmiralDonSnider]

Any community, be it political or scientific, must be able to preserve itself the power to distance from what it decides to be different or, to repel a possible pluralist objection and stress the aspect focussed here, inconsistent with its own values.

 

It may be that the amateur community for too long has been ignoring this principle and has started to tolerate practices that are increasingly discrediting as well as threatening it as a whole. While many, despite of juridical circumstances anyhow worrisome, have practiced safely and without menacing themselves as well as their environment to any serious extent, there seems to be a small but growing minority of individuals, equally uneducated as primitive in their "artistic" demands, who are disparaging pyro, technically to the level of two-component mixing, artistically to blasting tree stumps and blowing holes in the ground.

 

While a well-educated craftsman, despite of his juridical status, may be a medicative sight when held against all those - how M. Swisher once put it - mere impresarios who are dominating the business nowadays, it is also true that easily accessible informational and chemical means have cultivated an army of pyrotechnic wannabes who share their scientfic-technical ignorance and asthetical gaucherie with todays typical "shooter".

 

I lucidly feel that the time has come to get rid of them, more emphatically than we did before. While some indulgance out of educational motives may have a point, we must clean not only the forums but the community as a whole from individuals obviously ineducable. Last weekend, the misguidance of what I call "the flash powder approach" cost another two lives and caused another series of investigations. Events like these will sooner or later terminate any qualified approach to pyro as well. For my part, I shall not hesitate to report any of those "amateur" accounts on Youtube hereafter. Be warned.

Edited December 8, 2014 by AdmiralDonSnider

[ddewees]

Meh...

[calebkessinger]

That's what we call evolution. Or thinning out the gene pool here. Like the guy from Arizona that let a 7 year old shoot a fully automatic weapon resulting in the instant end of his life. Tragic yes. Worth destroying the whole system. no. No different than the movie stars dying in fiery auto crashes. Live hard.. die hard. It's not contained to the fireworks community.

It's no different than a friend of mine who used to drink Rock stars every day. was 100 lbs over weight and never exercised...

I got a phone call this morning... dead as a hammer. oh, at 41 i think

Yeah, they might excite the masses and get things tightened down but that really has nothing to do with the idiots and everything to do with society as a whole changing.

Edited December 8, 2014 by calebkessinger

[Blackthumb]

In Full Agreement!1

[marks265]

We already know that we can't fix stupid. But we should also realize that we can't dig stupid out of the dark. A lot of these guys pop up after their little ooops. Then you realize "hey there goes another idiot." When stupid dies all we lose is money for the tax pool if they even contribute to that. Years ago we had wars to thin the herd, now we have stupid people to do it.

[Bobosan]

+1 Yup! What he said.

[OblivionFall]

You have a point, and it's true, most of the guys posting videos on youtube about "How to make an m80" or something like that are forgetting that the majority of the people that watch those video and attempt to recreate what they have instructed in their videos are uneducated on how dangerous flash powder can be. Most youtubers are just looking to make money and get views.

 

It doesn't matter how many videos get removed or reported, people looking to make (ground)salutes won't stop until they find out how. That, or they'll figure it out the dangerous way: on their own.

 

Talking about how you're going to go and report youtube videos isn't as effective or as good of a choice as instructing "kewl" bombers the safest way to make these explosives. You can try to get them into making BP, and people on this forum do that, but it's usually not as effective because teenagers and sometimes adults are coming here to find out how they can make the big salutes they find on youtube. I think your best bet is to instruct them on the consequences of making these explosives and how risky it is, then give them the safest methods to build them. It's either that, or they go ahead and watch some sketchy youtube video where the guy instructs them to lightly ram down 30g of flash powder into a tube so you can fit more in.

 

That's just my opinion, but of course there are other ways of preventing "kewl bomberz" from hurting themselves or others.

[mkn]

oh this had me rolling ! I was looking for the little smiley guy character that rolls back and forth on his back pounding his fist laughing. LMAO. But seriously we are dealing with a similar problem here in the US with firearms and a very small group of people that abuse them and the antis want to regulate / remove them from all law abiding citizens.

 

I do think that the admiral has some good points, all it takes is a few issues, a small group who wants to " make it safer for all citizens " a few representatives / law makers to take an interest and next thing you know, we have anti's working to limit our freedoms in the name of safety. I'm not sure what kind of power the PGI or other pyro groups have, but they are probably not as strong as the NRA for firearms, and I would not want to see where our 2nd amendments rights would be today without the NRA. Also consider they are defending a constitutional right, not the freedom to pursue a pyrotechnic hobby in our post 911 , Boston and the other well know tragedies.

 

And for what its worth, an NRA plug, if you value an ability to own a firearm , you should join the NRA and follow the legal battles fought to defend our rights, you will be amazed at what the antis are up to. It will be the best money you ever spend for you, your kids, your grandkids, and so on.

 

It maybe good for a free site like this to have the mediators and founders discuss a policy on these issues and how to enforce them if procedures are not already in place. Education, safety, and awareness maybe the best path considering all the "information" on youtube and the net.

 

Matt

 

Edit: Oblivion's post beat me to it, similar thoughts. Keep the focus of a site like this safe, professional and law-abiding.

Edited December 9, 2014 by mkn

[Maserface]

How many members of APC have been hurt with flash powder in the last year?

[Bobosan]

How many members of APC have been hurt with flash powder in the last year?

 

None, that we saw on the forum in past year. It was always BP that caused a problem but that doesn't negate the dangers of flash by any means.

[Maserface]

Maybe this thread should be called "The black powder approach!"

[ddewees]

^ the difference though, is the bp accidents were mishaps that occurred in "normal and accepted pyrotechnic activities".

 

ADS is talking about the kewl bomb kids, and (I think) just dumb people in general who like fireworks just as much as he does.

 

I'm having difficulty understanding everything he wrote though... but it sounds like a declaration for segregation. Maybe based on maturity or intellect... or possibly just their vernacular.

 

 

I'm mostly curious where it came from... I'm not familiar with the injury/incident he referred to, nor have I noticed any armies or growing minorities.

 

To me I just hear "curmudgeon".

[wildcherryxoxo]

Any community, be it political or scientific, must be able to preserve itself the power to distance from what it decides to be different or, to repel a possible pluralist objection and stress the aspect focussed here, inconsistent with its own values.

 

It may be that the amateur community for too long has been ignoring this principle and has started to tolerate practices that are increasingly discrediting as well as threatening it as a whole. While many, despite of juridical circumstances anyhow worrisome, have practiced safely and without menacing themselves as well as their environment to any serious extent, there seems to be a small but growing minority of individuals, equally uneducated as primitive in their "artistic" demands, who are disparaging pyro, technically to the level of two-component mixing, artistically to blasting tree stumps and blowing holes in the ground.

 

While a well-educated craftsman, despite of his juridical status, may be a medicative sight when held against all those - how M. Swisher once put it - mere impresarios who are dominating the business nowadays, it is also true that easily accessible informational and chemical means have cultivated an army of pyrotechnic wannabes who share their scientfic-technical ignorance and asthetical gaucherie with todays typical "shooter".

 

I lucidly feel that the time has come to get rid of them, more emphatically than we did before. While some indulgance out of educational motives may have a point, we must clean not only the forums but the community as a whole from individuals obviously ineducable. Last weekend, the misguidance of what I call "the flash powder approach" cost another two lives and caused another series of investigations. Events like these will sooner or later terminate any qualified approach to pyro as well. For my part, I shall not hesitate to report any of those "amateur" accounts on Youtube hereafter. Be warned.

 

 

To summarize, "if they know less than me, fuck em. If they know more than me, they can stay"

 

 

^ the difference though, is the bp accidents were mishaps that occurred in "normal and accepted pyrotechnic activities".

 

ADS is talking about the kewl bomb kids, and (I think) just dumb people in general who like fireworks just as much as he does.

 

I'm having difficulty understanding everything he wrote though... but it sounds like a declaration for segregation. Maybe based on maturity or intellect... or possibly just their vernacular.

 

 

I'm mostly curious where it came from... I'm not familiar with the injury/incident he referred to, nor have I noticed any armies or growing minorities.

 

To me I just hear "curmudgeon".

 

 

BP accidents dont occur during normal and accepted activities. Lets look at the last 3 (that I can think of).

1. Drying BP on a hotplate (I cant even)

2. Milling BP with glass marbles (what)

3. Milling large quantities of BP in a garage?, else that is unclear is the motor type involved here. (details are unclear, I only assume that which has been implied or stated)

 

There have also been plenty of accidents involved with testing stars/comp.

 

 

I dont mean to put the above on blast, merely observations.

 

 

If we collectively want more directed and intelligent conversations to take place on APC, then we ought not to talk down to those below us, but instead continue the artistic/scientific pyrotechnic atmosphere that is already mostly prevalent on this site (and others)

[dagabu]

Not in a garage, an open shed. There was plenty of head space and egress and had nothing to do with the injury as the shed didn't trap heat and the shed did not catch fire or burn. I know, "don't feed the trolls."

[ddewees]

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/9zn61v.jpg

[wildcherryxoxo]

I mentioned that I was possibly misinformed on the exact details of your accident, and I intentionally left names out. Not trying to troll here- I wouldnt wish what you have been through on my worst enemy (which you might be )

 

I only hope that people dont blind themselves with the dangers of flash and ignore the ones associated with BP (and other live compositions that we work with).

[gregh]

Exactly wildcherry, we all know how dangerous flash is and are always on high alert and saftey conscious when working with it, but sometimes forget that any of our other comps can and will kill us if we don't respect them as well.

[pyroman2498]

Honestly , I've gotten to the point to where , if they want to be a kewl , let them find out the hard way , it isnt like they listen especially the 10 year Olds whom assume they know everything and nothing bad could happen to them. ( I use to be one if these kids )

I know that it could damage the hobby if some kid got hurt , but let's be honest , the kids parents shouldn't be buying the kid chemicals anyways , and if so they should research and keep the kid away from cap like flash , a few rockets or fountains are understandable

 

Sorry for going off on this tangent but I've see so many kewls and received so many emails about flash and b***S That it's getting ridiculous ....

 

Stay safe and stay green

 

~ Steven

[GalFisk]

Honestly , I've gotten to the point to where , if they want to be a kewl , let them find out the hard way , it isnt like they listen especially the 10 year Olds whom assume they know everything and nothing bad could happen to them. ( I use to be one if these kids )

I know that it could damage the hobby if some kid got hurt , but let's be honest , the kids parents shouldn't be buying the kid chemicals anyways , and if so they should research and keep the kid away from cap like flash , a few rockets or fountains are understandable

 

Sorry for going off on this tangent but I've see so many kewls and received so many emails about flash and b***S That it's getting ridiculous ....

 

Stay safe and stay green

 

~ Steven

At the time when you were one of this kids, what kid of approach do you believe would have been most effective in making you not "one of those kids", or at least in keeping you reasonably safe?

 

My best friend's mom bought us firecrackers (BP) and other fireworks when we were in out early teens. She knew we would find some way to experiment no matter what, and reasoned that it was the safest approach. If not, we would've either: mixed chemicals or stolen or bought fireworks on the black market, and hidden our experiments from the grownups.

This way instead, we felt honored and privileged, and we were under adult supervision. We did do a few not-so-smart things, but nothing like the trouble we could've gotten into otherwise. I don't think she predicted that I'd never grow out of it though

 

The first goal should be to turn "those kids" into "one of us". Many of us have been there.

If the first cannot be achieved, the second goal should be discouragement and safety, so they don't turn into an anti-fireworks statistic.

If neither can be achieved, all that can be done is to distance ourselves, and show that we did all that was in our power to prevent things like that.

 

I believe distance as a first goal is counterproductive.

[jessoman]

My stance 'in forum land' is growing more and more towards (and I propose):

 

'Ignoring these people that aren't researching, let their stupid posts rot. The information is out there... Often when these stupid questions are asked by these people, it becomes a war between US. When we all try and deal with it in the way we personally see fit, it often ends up on us all turning on each other (albeit mildly)'

 

There is no reason why we shouldn't just give them a post with the word "Search button, use it". When there is a legitimate question, we answer as per normal.

 

In reply to Admiral's post, we do need to do something though. Doing nothing is doing something.

 

"Looks below at 'thread suggestions" (in forum interface) to see a summary of stupid flash related questions"

[AdmiralDonSnider]

I appreciate that my post has caught some attention, although it could have been misinterpreted in some aspects. I hope I will find time to reply in detail this Saturday.

[marks265]

I just want to make a note that people not only get hurt from making devices or mixtures. People have also been hurt getting rid of material, mainly by throwing unwanted composition of whistle fuel to stars in a fire pit. I know I can name a couple people in very recent memory, but that isn't gonna happen. As discussed, flash and generating other pyrotechnic material can be problematic, but isn't always the culprit. Just something to think about I guess.

 

Mark

[mikeee]

Every journey starts with the first step, most people in this hobby/industry started out with no knowledge of the art.

Each one of us took a different path to end up at our current understanding and knowledge of the art.

We all come from different lands, cultures and beliefs. What is common and allowed in one country is outlawed and looked

down upon in another. In a free society children grow up learning from open access to knowledge and experimentation.

I grew up with a chemistry set and building model rockets and other back yard adventures. Today in our politically correct

society this would be looked down upon and we are quickly losing out to new generations that have no practical experience

or knowledge attained from self discovery which is most rewarding. Most of the youth growing up these days spend the day

playing games on a computer and have no interest in working with their hands to build or invent on their own.

 

Everyone has a choice of locating knowledge, the Internet, YouTube, Books, The Kid Down The Street, or Professionals with

training and practical experience. Most of us grew up with an endless thirst for knowledge and went to extremes to find the

knowledge we claim as our own. A large number of people on this site would have to admit they started out building small

pyro items that were quick and easy to build (75/15/10) & (70/30). We all progressed to more complex and rewarding works

of art as our skills evolved.

 

I have yet to meet a Pyro Professional that was born with knowledge of the art. We all had to learn it one way or the other.

[AdmiralDonSnider]

I know my initial post may have sounded provocative and conceited to some. Not being a native speaker, I sometimes might be putting too much effort into my statements, which is what makes them sound swellheaded.

 

Although it had been written as a direct reaction to another shocking accident in my vicinity, as well as its consequences to the "pyrotechnic environment", I do still vouch for the main idea, or to put it like that, questions I wanted to put forward for discussion and make people think about. I breaks down to the following three points:

 

 

1.) What is a quality approach to pyro and what is not?

2.) How does the community distance itself from practices that certainly do not correspond to the above definition? How does it deal with the individuals in question?

3.) How must pyros behave in an environment becoming increasingly uncomfortable, at least outside the U.S.?

 

 

To briefly elaborate on that and also to respond to some replies that were certainly misconceiving what I had in view:

 

ad 1)

Maybe this thread should be called "The black powder approach!"

While different people may focus on different aspects of pyro, in all those fields there certainly is a well-defined line separating a quality approach from pure botchery. The former is usually linked with knowledge as well as an artistic goal, the latter, in my experience, with incompetence (the one not looking for improvement) as well as a crude and nervous exitement for the "louder and larger". There is a difference between a craftsman building a nine timed report shell and a moron blowing holes into the ground with same base material. A characterological one, too.

While it could have been labelled differently than "the flash powder approach", such mixtures certainly recommend themselves to these people due to their power and the fact that (in practice) only an absolute minimum of knowledge is required to produce them. Hence I believe that e.g. black powder secludes itself from the possible candidates, as its production requires a degree of knowledge and effort.

 

ad 2)

To summarize, "if they know less than me, fuck em. If they know more than me, they can stay"

 

I believe distance as a first goal is counterproductive.

 

I certainly was not trying to suggest the above. Forums can only exist due to knowledge transfer, and unsheathing the principle stated by wildcherry would quickly eliminate any discussion.

 

Nevertheless, the question on how to deal with individuals that are harmful to the community and its environment still remains. I am tired of all those morons literally feeding the publics "bomb maker" prejudices against our sort, as well as justifying the authority´s urge to remedy all of those "twilight practices".

 

After last months accident, one official expert, who had been investigating it and similar cases, was cited in the media: "...producing effects of color is not usually of any interest to those people." That says it all.

 

ad 3)

I think many of us have not yet come to realize how decisive ones own way of acting is in the given juridical environment. This may also apply to some skilled individuals, who seem to show an insatiable desire to share any of todays achievements with the general public! I think we do us some good if we stick to the exchange of theory and technique and stem our desire for applause.

Edited December 13, 2014 by AdmiralDonSnider

[mikeee]

Admiral.

 

I have been reading articles of recent events taking place in Europe and a number of them are quiet disturbing to say the least.

Several of these events were very sad to read the outcome of the event and circumstances leading up to them.

This still comes back to every person taking responsibility for their own actions. There is no way to legislate the proper

actions of every person in our societies. How many people are hurt and killed each year at a public sporting events (Soccer & Football).

Most of these criminal acts are carried out by adults and not children. How many Pharma companies push drugs into the market place

that are not safe and cause numerous deaths before they are finally pulled from the market, all because they need to pay for the R&D

of the drugs. In our country we have numerous petrol companies "Fracking" large areas of ground to extract Natural Gas, this process

is contaminating water supplies and will cause numerous deaths over time. The Chinese are building coal fired plants and bringing them

on line about (1) per week. Many of their cities have levels of toxins in the air and water which are killing large numbers of people each year.

There are more people that die from medical malpractice each day in our health care facilities then die from pyro accidents each year.

 

You bring a valid concern to the group, how do we keep new people safe that have an interest in the hobby/industry/art?

In other trades, crafts and arts, a teacher or mentor is paired with the new student to help guide them.

A website such as this has numerous concerns when it comes to providing information on Pyro related projects.

There is no easy answer.