deadman Posted December 7, 2006 Posted December 7, 2006 Poison: The best thing for you to do is to start over. Forget what you think you know and learn it right. A rocket needs the following:>A strong casing>A nozzle for most fuels>An appropriate fuel (not too fast or too slow) If your using a pencil as your rammer, then you need to make sure the tube is the exact I.D. as your pencils O.D. give or take a few hundredths of an inch. THE TUBE:You can roll your tube out of 20 lb. computer paper. Use white or wood glue. For easy application use a mix of glue and water and a small wide paint brush. Roll the paper TIGHTLY around the mandrel(pencil). Coat the paper with your glue. Roll it tightly and thick. You need to let it dry completely for it to be usable. THE PLUGS/CLAY:If you have access to bentonite (check well driller supplies in the phone book) or any kind of dry clay. Also "indian clay" the red clay found in the ground in alot of places in the USA can be used as endplugs and nozzles. Make sure it is dry. You can heat to dry or use a dessicator (explained later on). Or you can do a common method of using bentonite kitty litter. It is the cheap stuff luckily. Just smack it with a hammer to powder it, then load it into your DRY tube. THE FUEL: If you've actually read all of this and paid attention, you'll remember the part where I said to start over. The problem with your potassium nitrate, sodium nitrate mix is that it is a potassium nitrate, sodium nitrate mix. This isn't too problematic for experience rocket builders like James Yawn, but for beginners you're going to need tried and true comps. Go to your local Lowes or Home Depot and get a bottle of stump remover. Green Light, Grant's and Spectracide, are the best to get as I know from experience they all work. Go to Lowes if you can as they carry Spectracide and/or Green Light, which are both more pure than Grant's and not prilled (which Grant's is). Home Depot carries Grant's which is prilled if you haven't figured that out yet. Now you have relativley pure KNO3. Next is your sugar, use confectioners (powdered) sugar. Well at least that part was simple. Next what do we do? Mix? NO! We make sure they are dry. Lets just say that on a molecular level there is enough water to turn this "rocket fuel" into just another smoke bomb. Use a dessicator or dry it in the oven. Seeing as how your most likely a young teen, I'd suggest a dessicator. Let them dry for a few days then mix thoroughly. So 60/40 has been mentioned, and so has the "5 cent sugar rocket", but there is also the 60/40 plus red iron oxide. You can get red iron oxide from ceramic supply houses, its under $4 for a pound. Get it if you can. Anyways mix it thoroughly and load it as described in the process. THE PROCESS:Your tube should have a piece of masking tape to keep the clay from falling out. Only put small increments of clay and/or fuel when loading rockets to prevent cracking and spaces, which end in CATO. Then slide your rammer/pencil wood end first, and whack the eraser end with a hammer. Deadblow hammers are usually used, but the eraser should act in place if your going to use a nail hammer. After whacking off the endplug a few times the sides of the tube should bulge a little bit, but not tear. Then ram the fuel until about the space of the nozzle should be. When everything is done ramming it should have two endplugs the same length in the tube as the tubes ID. With solid fuel rammed in between. The nozzle is whichever endplug you drill a hole into. Try to make sure the nozzle is centered and about 1/4 to 1/3 the size of the tubes ID. Experiment with nozzle sizes for best results. If it is not fast enough make the nozzle smaller. If it blows up make the nozzle larger. Random stuff mentioned in post:I.D. = Inner diameterO.D. = Outer diameter A dessicator is: A closed container with a water absorbing agent in it. A seperate container for whatever you are drying inside the container with an open lid. Grab a large tupperware container and coat the bottom with some Damp-Rid (CaCl2). Place an open smaller container on top of the dessicant (Damp-Rid) and close the larger tupperware container. Let it dry for a few days. Ok that took me a long ass time to right, so read it try it and tell us what happens. Don't use a dessicator unless you believe your comp is absorbing too much water to begin with, but it wouldn't hurt anyways. Anyone if something doesn't make sense please try to correct it. It is late and I've tooken too long for a post that was supposed to be quick and easy.
Phildo Posted December 7, 2006 Posted December 7, 2006 deadman,For a quick and easy reply, I'd say you covered everything pretty thoroughly. I sense an Engineering background. Green Light, Grant's and Spectracide, are the best to get as I know from experience they all work. Spectracide is supposed to be 100% according to their MSDS and is the only one available around me. I used to buy this and still have several bottles because I went a little crazy and bought 4 bottles from each of the 3 stores around here......twice. I had read where manufacturers were either changing their formulations or adding fire retardant and I figured I'd stock up while it was still available. The problem was the $5-$6 per pound price and large granules that required a lot of milling. I'm a little less paranoid and now buy it in 50# containers directly from a distributor. For about the same cost as a pound of stump remover, you can get 2-3 pounds of finely granulated KNO3 on Ebay. I would suggest finding a seller close to you to save on shipping and buy your KNO3 there.
poisonkiller Posted December 7, 2006 Posted December 7, 2006 I think first Im gonna try boiling some water and mix it with KNO3/NaNO3+KCl and crystallize it. Second choice is to find stump remover.
deadman Posted December 7, 2006 Posted December 7, 2006 Phildo:I buy my KNO3 in 50 pound bags, but was suggesting it for poison killer. These are what I started out with, and I haven't looked at the MSDS of any of them and don't plan to. But spectracide worked the best for me. If poison wants to get it on eBay all the power to him, but I just figured he wouldn't have a way to pay other than cash. Poison: Do you even know what ratio of KNO3/NaNO3 you are using? Stick with straight one or the other. Why are you going to add KCl? It is a fire retardant. What is the point of REcrystallizing it? Your just going to have to wait even longer for it to dry to be usable. Especially if you are using NaNO3. Please take my advice if you want one to even move. Edit: Didn't know this forum didn't use the <sub> codes. Also, poison don't take my posts the wrong way. I don't want to steer you away from pyro/rocketry, but am trying to point you in the right direction.
poisonkiller Posted December 7, 2006 Posted December 7, 2006 Im going to add KCl, because a tutorial said to do this, I read it in another forum. And I know the exact amount of water, KCl and KNO3/NaNO3 to crystallize it.
deadman Posted December 8, 2006 Posted December 8, 2006 Do you know the reason that tutorial included it? I am having trouble finding a worthwhile use for KCl in a rocket comp that is already pretty tame. And just because it is in another tutorial does that mean it is going to work? If you decided to follow mine and it said to use a KMNO4 based flash to "boost" the speed would you do it? These are just suggestions afterall. I am just wondering, did you read my entire post?
Mumbles Posted December 8, 2006 Posted December 8, 2006 I think the reason for is that the potassium and sodium nitrates are in one product. They are not being pre-mixed by poisonkiller. When he purchases the product, it contains both. The purpose of adding KCl and recrystalizing is to get a relatively pure KNO3. It forms Potassium Nitrate and sodium chloride from the NaNO3. NaCl has very little change in solubility over the range of liquid water meaning very little of it will recrystalize while KNO3 has a large difference resulting in much crystalization.
deadman Posted December 9, 2006 Posted December 9, 2006 Mumbles:So.... The Potassium Nitrate will saturate out of the solution while the NaCl stays dissolved in the water? Is there no activation energy required for the NaNO3 + KCl --> KNO3 + NaCl other than room temperature? Poison:Could I see this tutorial? PM is fine. What is your source of chemicals?
WisdomElf Posted December 9, 2006 Posted December 9, 2006 Hey everyone!Can I melt the sulfur with the potassium-nitrate and the sugar together or is it dangerous? (BTW, sorry for my English, I'm Israeli)
poisonkiller Posted December 9, 2006 Posted December 9, 2006 I THINK that sulfur will ignite and then everything else will ignite too, so it will be dangerous.
styropyro Posted December 9, 2006 Posted December 9, 2006 Sulfur you don't really want to melt with something else. First of all the fumes from the sulfur would be absolutly terrible, and sulfur drops the igniton point of your composition so melting with all of the oxidizers and fuels already mixed in would probably end up being bad. So I would just stick with using powdered chemicals.
Mumbles Posted December 9, 2006 Posted December 9, 2006 Sulfur melts below the melting point of sugar, actually just a bit above the boiling point of water. Once it melts, it will probably react with the KNO3. I would probably suggest against melting them together. Perhaps melt the sugar and sulfur together, and then take it off the heat and kneed in the KNO3. As for the KCl to KNO3 thing, there is no activation energy neccesary. It's an ion exchange thing. The low solubility at low temperatures is the driving force of the reaction. In solution it is jus ta bunch of ions. When you cool it, it precipitates the most insoluble compound, in this case KNO3.
h0lx Posted January 8, 2007 Posted January 8, 2007 This is my new rocket, ~80 grams of KNO3/Suger 60/40, melted, weighs 140 grams, ID 22mm, fins of thick cardboard and cone from paper.http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/2236/p1060756ef9.th.jpghttp://img300.imageshack.us/img300/4333/p1060757fr4.th.jpg
h0lx Posted January 8, 2007 Posted January 8, 2007 no tooling used, just rammed plug, drilled nozzle, pluged hole with cotton, poured in propellant, removed cotton, pushed core with a rod, waited for it to harden, cast the other plug from plaster.
Newbergpyro Posted January 29, 2007 Posted January 29, 2007 okay this is off topic, but do any of you ever make bottle-rocket sized KN03/SU rockets, melted, recryst., or dry. I'm taking pretty small like 1/4" -1/2" ID and no more than 3-4" long. Just wondering because I know I enjoy making them.
teknix Posted January 29, 2007 Posted January 29, 2007 Yeah I used to dry pack sugar propellant into small cut sections of pen tubes for a bottle rocket. They work pretty well and go about 50 feet or so.
Newbergpyro Posted January 29, 2007 Posted January 29, 2007 Great Idea teknix! was the pen bottle rocket nozzleless?
teknix Posted January 29, 2007 Posted January 29, 2007 No. I used ground up kitty litter as a nozzel and then packed it in and then the propellant and then more litter clay. Then I just drilled it with a small drill bit and a dremmel to drill the core and exit hole.
Newbergpyro Posted January 30, 2007 Posted January 30, 2007 thats pretty cool teknix. I just ordered about 100 feet of fuse from cannonfuse.com and I have no idea how long it's goint to tak eto get here, but I can't wait! do any of you guys know how long it takes? yeah then I can start making my bottle rockets. I plan on buying either an electric skillet or cheap toaster oven and making some recrystallized kno3/su. from the tutorial on james yawn's page.
Deceitful_Frank Posted November 28, 2007 Posted November 28, 2007 My latest attempt containing 75 grams of uncatalyzed rocket candy in an aluminum motor weighing 175 grams. weight of motor and guid stick was 208 grams plus with the 202 gram stack of steel coins added to simulate a video camera and nosecone, total liftoff mass 410 grams The rocket was traveling at 310 mph as it left the frame and burned on for a further quarter of a second with a max velocity somewhat over 400mph I would guess. I tried to follow it up into the sky after burnout but it just vanished into the blue. Maybe a slow burning tracking grain would help but I will have to see if I can include this in my 14cm long Al tubes without sacrificing performance or integrity of the motor... it operates at a VERY high pressure! Anyway, enjoy... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVaQLUXJqcQ
millhouse Posted December 2, 2007 Posted December 2, 2007 Hey. i started my pyro projects from sugar rockets,and till now i am making them ,i only use dry kno3/sugar mix,and as far as i tested,it works really well,even as end burners! (had some sucsesfull lounches) . But i stick to corne burners,tryed one with 8cm long and 25mm ID tube yesterday. Core was 2/3 of my rocket lenght,heres a vid: http://www.apcforum.net/files/P1.MOV
starfighter Posted December 16, 2007 Posted December 16, 2007 Hi guys I'm a new member to the site I found the site by a fluke.After reading a few of the postings I could tell that there is a big knowledge base here.I'm a reborn rocketer (BAR) and sometimes I like the technical aspect of it.I've looked in to different fuels for the engines and I figure the Rcandy is the easiest way to get started experimenting.I founnd another site with a great how to cook the Candy especially for myself as a newbie.I'm hoping someone else can get some useful tips here Mike http://www.primitiveengineering.com/blog/?p=13
TzaRocket Posted February 2, 2008 Posted February 2, 2008 Hy everyone,just launched today my first high power rochet.I used a H class PVC engine using my own formulae of sugar syrup methode(look at http://www.jamesyawn.com/syrup/index.html). The rocket went like hell:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqQyIL8iu5k A picture(sorry about my hair,it was windy ) of it:http://img82.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00013ve7.jpg
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