snowycole Posted September 27, 2010 Posted September 27, 2010 Hey guys, just wondering if I could ballmill my sugar/sulfur/kno3 mix and get similar results to melting...
dagabu Posted September 27, 2010 Posted September 27, 2010 Hey guys, just wondering if I could ballmill my sugar/sulfur/kno3 mix and get similar results to melting... Similar but no, melting is better as the integration of the KNO3 and fuel is much higher in a liquid.
Pyropow3r Posted October 2, 2010 Posted October 2, 2010 Just to clear things there are like fifty different ratios floating around out there but there is only one that should be used that is the " Ideal" ratio and that is....... 66% KNO3 and 34% Sucrose This is based on math.... So upon ignition there is a complete reaction so there is no waste all go's to producing what is desired and that is gases.
WSM Posted October 3, 2010 Posted October 3, 2010 Just to clear things there are like fifty different ratios floating around out there but there is only one that should be used that is the " Ideal" ratio and that is....... 66% KNO3 and 34% Sucrose This is based on math.... So upon ignition there is a complete reaction so there is no waste all go's to producing what is desired and that is gases. If the propellant power isn't enough, some have added catalysts. Try 1% additional red iron oxide and see the difference (I was impressed!). WSM
dagabu Posted October 3, 2010 Posted October 3, 2010 Copper (II) oxide will work even better. Good call WSM, I had forgotten about catalysts. You can do a dry mix with oxides for the power you are looking for.
Juiceh Posted October 9, 2010 Posted October 9, 2010 (edited) Just to clear things there are like fifty different ratios floating around out there but there is only one that should be used that is the " Ideal" ratio and that is....... 66% KNO3 and 34% Sucrose This is based on math.... So upon ignition there is a complete reaction so there is no waste all go's to producing what is desired and that is gases. If the propellant power isn't enough, some have added catalysts. Try 1% additional red iron oxide and see the difference (I was impressed!). WSM Copper (II) oxide will work even better. Good call WSM, I had forgotten about catalysts. You can do a dry mix with oxides for the power you are looking for. I'd like to thank those quoted above!!! Last night I made a dry mixed sugar rocket, the first sugar rocket I've ever tried making. Ball milled KNO3 66:34 powdered sugar + 2% Copper (II) Oxide. I just dumped everything into a plastic tub and shook it up a bit. The mix was FAR from perfect as I could see small white granule sized clumps of powdered sugar in the mix which was a nice grayish color thanks to the copper oxide. So, with a spoon I hand mixed the powder a bit to try to smoosh and smear around the sugar clumps. Still, after about 10 minutes of mixing the composition up with a spoon there were visible white specks. I decided to call it quits on the mixing and just see how it will work out as is. I did a quick test burn of some of the powder and it burned very similar to BP rocket fuel, which surprised me. I used United Nuclear 1LB BP tooling to build the rocket. Now I know what you are thinking, the nozzle is way too big for a sugar rocket... Well, that's what i thought too! Especially after seeing the "perfect nozzle" plans and how tiny the nozzle is. I completed the rocket with a small ~10+ gram BP meal powder header to help mark how high it went and to see if the rocket would lift anything. I was very doubtful that this rocket would actually go anywhere, in fact the first 1/4 second into the engine igniting that's what I thought was happening. Here is a picture of the nozzle of my second Sugar Rocket, same tooling used on this one.http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/5720/sugarrocketnozzle.jpgThis one has some Titanium powder in the fuel and some spherical Titanium in the delay hopefully this one will be much easier to track! Here is the video of the one I set off last night! *edit*I'd like to point out that I am in no way bashing the perfect nozzle plans. Just saying that they aren't necessarily needed to make a successful sugar rocket. Due to their nozzle size they will probably give you much greater height than I achieved with the tooling I used. But, if you have BP tooling and don't want to deal with making the perfect nozzle tooling, it can be done! Edited October 9, 2010 by Juiceh
anapogeetoofar Posted October 13, 2010 Posted October 13, 2010 Copper (II) oxide will work even better. Good call WSM, I had forgotten about catalysts. Oxides of copper are poor catalysts of sugar propellant. Richard Nakka's data says it reduces the burn rate in KNDX. The best catalysts for sugar propellant all seem to be iron compounds, such as the oxides of iron, ferrocene, catocene, ferocyanides, ferricyanides, ETC.Ferrocene and potassium ferrocyanide being the most potent of the lot.In terms of the oxides of iron, yellow iron oxide yields the fastest propellant in my tests, then brown, then red, then black. Everyone I have talked to seems to say that brown iron oxide is the fastest, but only under pressure. Why only iron compounds work well is something someone smarter than I will need to figure out.You might also try adding lampblack or charcoal as an opacifier, that also increases the burn rate. Here are some of the comps I fly regularly: 30 NaNO3/ 30 KnO3/ 40 sucrose Recrystallized. Iron oxide optional40/NaNO3/ 20 KnO3/ 40 sucrose/ 3 iron oxide (red) Recrystallized. Iron oxide required for propellant to burn (puts itself out otherwise).55 KClO4/ 15 NaNO3/ 35 sucrose/ 4 iron oxide (red or yellow) Recrystallized. (note: end burners only! It may seem tame, but its wild stuff under pressure!) Why recrystallized? Well, you can make it at temperatures well below the melting point of sucrose, it burns the fastest and has the highest ISP, you can mold it with your hands and not burn yourself, and you can make big batches, store it in an airtight container and reheat when needed. If dry packing is more your thing: 65 KnO3/ 20 sucrose/ 10 sulfur/ 5 400mesh Al (very pretty flame, very manageable burn rate, not very hygroscopic, packs nice.) Now once again, this is all from my experimental rocketry activities, except the dry packed, that lifts headers, not $100+ rockets. Your results may vary, no warranty expressed or implied.
Oubadah Posted November 3, 2010 Posted November 3, 2010 (edited) never mind Edited November 4, 2010 by Oubadah
dagabu Posted November 3, 2010 Posted November 3, 2010 Oxides of copper are poor catalysts of sugar propellant. Richard Nakka's data says it reduces the burn rate in KNDX. That's interesting, guess Iron Oxide is the oxide of choice then.
snowycole Posted November 20, 2010 Posted November 20, 2010 Hey guys, I was jwing if I could buy the perfect nozzle kit and not just the plans somewhere...? Cause I dont have a lathe or drill press or anything like that at my house :/
ChrisNZ Posted November 20, 2010 Posted November 20, 2010 Hey guys, I was jwing if I could buy the perfect nozzle kit and not just the plans somewhere...? Cause I dont have a lathe or drill press or anything like that at my house :/ Like the ones listed here? I guess the BP and Bottle Rocket kits could be used for KNSU rockets too.
dagabu Posted November 20, 2010 Posted November 20, 2010 (edited) Sure, how many do you want? This one is 1-7/16", all aluminum construction. Edited November 20, 2010 by dagabu
snowycole Posted November 21, 2010 Posted November 21, 2010 Thanks for the offer Dagabu, but I actually went ahead and made some 1/2" wood tooling for sugar rockets
DontevenKNO3 Posted November 26, 2010 Posted November 26, 2010 What about sorbitol? Would it be the same ratio?
DontevenKNO3 Posted November 26, 2010 Posted November 26, 2010 If i make a 3 foot KNO3 and sorbitol rocket with three fins, and the rocket just sits on level ground, will i need a guide rod to lauch or do you guys think it will be stable enough to launch with no guide rod.
dagabu Posted November 26, 2010 Posted November 26, 2010 If i make a 3 foot KNO3 and sorbitol rocket with three fins, and the rocket just sits on level ground, will i need a guide rod to lauch or do you guys think it will be stable enough to launch with no guide rod. Couple of things, could you change the tag on the bottom of your page? I have kids and a wife and do not like to expose them to that language, thanks. Yes, the lower the impulse, the longer the rial or guide rod. Sugar rockets need some time to pick up speed and need a guide rod that is 150% their length for stabilization, that said, some need longer rods depending on the rocket motor. If you choose to use BP or Hybrid fuel, a guide rod of only 100% the length of the body will work.
madmandotcom Posted January 22, 2011 Posted January 22, 2011 does it make a difference or not when you compact it vs melt it?
pillyg Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 does it make a difference or not when you compact it vs melt it? yes it makes a huge difference you can get a skillet for under $20 at walmart.
madmandotcom Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 i found icing sugar worked better than standard powdered sugar
pillyg Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 It does only when you compact it. They are the same when you cook it.
madmandotcom Posted February 2, 2011 Posted February 2, 2011 actualy, i never had any luck with the cooked stuff
anapogeetoofar Posted February 2, 2011 Posted February 2, 2011 (edited) It does only when you compact it. They are the same when you cook it. Actually, there is a markedly different texture when using confectioners (powdered) sugar as opposed to table sugar. It also melts faster so is a bit safer and will result in less caramelization. Edited February 2, 2011 by anapogeetoofar
Mumbles Posted February 2, 2011 Posted February 2, 2011 Maybe terminology is different in your part of the world but powdered sugar = icing sugar = confectioner's sugar. There is one without corn starch, but it's not any of those three typically.
dagabu Posted February 2, 2011 Posted February 2, 2011 In a conversation with James Yawn about a decade ago, I had asked him if I could just dissolve the sugar in water first and add it as a liquid to the pan and then add the KNO3. He hadn't tried this and told me to filter the sugar water to see if I got any impurities. Boy did I! The filter completely plugged after only a cup had passed through. I used a paint filter and had better luck but there was so much crud in any sugar (I guess it could be corn starch) that I gave up filtering it through paper and settled on the paint filter. When added to the pan first and then the KNO3 was added, the whole thing was boiled down to a light caramel color and poured into grains. It was then waxed and stored. This is by far the best R-candy I have ever made and provided the only nozzle blowout I have had with this fuel. I dont do R-candy any more, too much work for too little payoff.
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