taiwanluthiers Posted November 24, 2014 Author Share Posted November 24, 2014 By components you mean stars and burst/lift or simply chemicals? I would think that any composition that can burn on its own would be explosive unless specifically exempted... (such as APCP or commercial bp if you have a bp rifle). I don't think it takes a long time to assemble a shell from components on site (drying may be a problem) but it would take a lot longer to go from chemicals to complete shell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 Would you tell a DOT roadie or a cop the same? To join a mailing list and/or ask the president of a hobbyist club? A hazmat trained officer explained it to me as I have explained above, and until I see official DOT published literature that says otherwise, I will continue to operate as I have heretofore. Indeed, we have and do every year. Just because you don't understand the laws at play, it does not make us all idiots whom do know what is and what is not applicable to hobbyists. You BEST method of solving this for yourself is to just call a local BATFE agent and ask them about hobbyist rules for transportation. I am sure they will be happy to share the applicable bulletin that was given to the PGI BOD some years back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maserface Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 Im not talking about a licensed person transporting homemade goods, that has been well established. I want to see exactly WHERE you (and others) have found an upper limit on pounds of 1.3g (that is, commercially designated, professional display fireworks) that can be transported without ladings, invoices, or even placards. If you cant prove it to me, you are gonna have a hellofa time proving it to a hyped up trooper who sees a pile of boxes with 1.3g labeling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nater Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 (edited) There is no upper limit. The rules regarding hazmat shipments only apply for those in commerce. They do not apply for personal use. When you are in commerce a single 1.3g shell in the trailer requires placards, CDL, etc.. Personal use is different, but you still need the appropriate BATFE license or permit. One's best defence against a "hyped up tropper" will be your BATFE papers. Looks at Ned's incident as an example. When he produced his license and explained what everything was, the tone of the situation changed. This was in an unfriendly State for pyro as well. As a first responder, I think it is silly. We need to know what we are getting into. The materials being transported are just as dangerous if they are being used commercially or now. By the way, this goes beyond explosives and applies to all hazmat products. Edited November 24, 2014 by nater 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 There is no upper limit. The rules regarding hazmat shipments only apply for those in commerce. They do not apply for personal use. When you are in commerce a single 1.3g shell in the trailer requires placards, CDL, etc.. Personal use is different, but you still need the appropriate BATFE license or permit. One's best defence against a "hyped up tropper" will be your BATFE papers. Looks at Ned's incident as an example. When he produced his license and explained what everything was, the tone of the situation changed. This was in an unfriendly State for pyro as well. As a first responder, I think it is silly. We need to know what we are getting into. The materials being transported are just as dangerous if they are being used commercially or now. By the way, this goes beyond explosives and applies to all hazmat products. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maserface Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 so now there is no weight limit? Interesting- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 so now there is no weight limit? Interesting- We have such strange laws at times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowcat1969 Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 Not to be a jerk or anything, but: "A hazmat trained officer explained it to me as I have explained above, and until I see official DOT published literature that says otherwise, I will continue to operate as I have heretofore" So you are basing your argument solely on verbal information from a single source (that could well be wrong), but are insisting that anything contradictory be shown to you in published material? If you actually re-read the thread, nobody said that there is any kind of “1000 lb rule” other than you.Mark265 used that as a nice, easy round number in an example (post #7), and Nater simply used the same number in his (post #15). The number either chose could easily have been 10 lbs, or 9,457.68 lbs. The actual amount makes no difference to DOT. They only care if it is "in commerce". They are the ones that officially use the designations "1.1, 1.3g. 1.4" etc. So to DOT, something that is NOT any of those designations because it is NOT in commerce, is NOT under their regulations, regardless of weight. If, however, something does fall under one of those designations then DOT does not care how much it weighs either, you MUST follow their rules for drug tests, placards, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maserface Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 (edited) Display fireworks are interesting with transportation laws. Assuming they are legally acquired and being handled by someone with the proper license, permit or employee possesor letter, they can only be transported placcards and a commercial hazmat driver when you are in commerce. If you are transporting them for personal use, you CANNOT placcard your vehicle per the DOT regulations. This means you can and have to transport 1000 lbs of 1.3 shells for a personal show in an umarked trailer. So much for keeping us first responders aware of potential hazards. Why did Nater mention 1000 pounds here? I dont believe that it was an arbitrary amount Edited November 24, 2014 by Maserface Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowcat1969 Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 I will leave it to him to clarify completely, but I'm betting that it was simply the same number Mark265 used above. It could easily have been any number. I'm pretty sure that his point was simply that DOT doesn't care about placarding on "not in commerce" vehicles, which puts first responders at risk. Especially if he is right that their regulations are such that you are NOT ALLOWED to placard if you are not in commerce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maserface Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 Not to be a jerk or anything, but: "A hazmat trained officer explained it to me as I have explained above, and until I see official DOT published literature that says otherwise, I will continue to operate as I have heretofore" So you are basing your argument solely on verbal information from a single source (that could well be wrong), but are insisting that anything contradictory be shown to you in published material? If you actually re-read the thread, nobody said that there is any kind of “1000 lb rule” other than you.Mark265 used that as a nice, easy round number in an example (post #7), and Nater simply used the same number in his (post #15). The number either chose could easily have been 10 lbs, or 9,457.68 lbs. The actual amount makes no difference to DOT. They only care if it is "in commerce". They are the ones that officially use the designations "1.1, 1.3g. 1.4" etc. So to DOT, something that is NOT any of those designations because it is NOT in commerce, is NOT under their regulations, regardless of weight. If, however, something does fall under one of those designations then DOT does not care how much it weighs either, you MUST follow their rules for drug tests, placards, etc. I am not arguing, I am just getting to the bottom of these rumors and assumptions- Why wouldnt I trust the official word given to me in an annual hazmat meeting? I only insist that any contradicting argument be duly cited because if I am to put myself at legal risk, I want to know where specifically to direct "authority" in the case of an accident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nater Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 I used 1000 lbs as an arbitrary amount which would be a large shipment of pyro, but still in the realm of an individual who frequently shoots private shows with commercial product. I would have easily referenced a case of 1.3g product with 10 lbs of net explosives and the point remains the same. If you are not in commerce and have the proper license or permit, you do not need and cannot use placards on your vehicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maserface Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 Ah- I assumed that it was some established limit, with 1.4g product, there is 1000 pound break point. If it's 1.3G, it's commercial fireworks, because a commercial EX number was applied for and granted in order to label them that way; and it would be up to you to prove they were "not in commerce". How would you do that? What sort of supporting records would you have to convince the DOT that you werent hauling in commerce? Personally, I would hate to roll up on a scene only to find out (too late) that the person was hauling large quantities of an explosive hazard class- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowcat1969 Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 If you have a bill of sale from the vendor to yourself (as a license holder legally allowed to purchase 1.3g), that should be sufficient to show that the product was no longer in commerce, as you are the end consumer and "the buck stops here". Also as long as you aren't licensed to re-sell it - I can see THAT opening up a big can of worms with "intent", etc. Otherwise, I think that the burden of proof would actually fall on them to prove that you ARE in commerce (innocent until proven guilty and all that). Not that that would always help a lot right there on the side of the highway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowcat1969 Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 By components you mean stars and burst/lift or simply chemicals? I would think that any composition that can burn on its own would be explosive unless specifically exempted... (such as APCP or commercial bp if you have a bp rifle). I don't think it takes a long time to assemble a shell from components on site (drying may be a problem) but it would take a lot longer to go from chemicals to complete shell. to get back to this portion: My understanding (which could well be wrong so correct me if I am) is that Stars and Burst (unless it is commercial BP, which isn't legal to be used in fireworks by unlicensed amateurs anyway) are "completed devices" at least as far as the transportation rules go. Raw chemicals, even some that are mixed, but not in their end comp (like you can transport Charcoal and Sulfur milled together that will be later added to KNO3 for BP) are ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpknd Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 So what this means is someone can"t order what he needs from Joes Pyro Supply and put together a few rockets, and wait untill the next weekend, put them in his car and go out somewhere and shoot them off? Maybe it"s time to just give up the hobby then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowcat1969 Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Pretty much. Not legally without a license anyway. It is, of course, your decision if you want to take the risk of being pulled over and searched and/or having a serious accident resulting in scattering your devices all over the roadway and being discovered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpknd Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 The prior understanding was that if it was for personal use no permits are or where required, has this changed, and when? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nater Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 To purchase, possess and use display fireworks, one needs the appropriate paperwork from the BATFE and local authorities. In my State, even a private display requires a permit issued by the local Fire Chief and proof of insurance. If you are making fireworks and are not transporting them off the property where they are made, you still need a local permit to discharge them, but no BATFE permit or license to handle them. If you transport them, you now need a license from the BATFE as well as a permit for the actual discharge site and date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 The prior understanding was that if it was for personal use no permits are or where required, has this changed, and when? I dont believe that has been the case for a very long time. You can't move them from your property, they have to be in a magazine and stored properly, you need a license in most states. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 If you're a member of a club, it's not hard to find the contacts needed to get a permit. All you really need is a clean background, a letter of contingency storage, and a few hundred bucks. Some clubs have arrangements that allow you to transport under their license as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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