Rolling - Issues

[enanthate]

After searching, there is another thread about Toro. I felt like I would be hijacking it too much with my post, so starting a new thread. Delete this if it's a problem.

 

Looking for advice, once and for all, as rolling doesn't seem to work for me. I've been trying my best in different ways, have rolled around 8-10 batches, but the same problems repeat themselves, making rolling a huge waste of chems for me (and chems are really expensive to get over here :/ ).

 

Haven't read any books about rolling, but seen alot of guides and videos on how to do it. I've tried a couple of different rollingbarrels, couple of different types of spraybottles. I scratch my bucket with sandingpaper to make it "coarse", which supposedly makes the stars roll more instead of just sliding.

My current barrel is the widest in diameter, and seemed to improve the rolling. However, still got some issues. Will write them down with numbers:

 

1. Composition is sticking to the barrel. I'm trying to spray only on the stars, but some will allways hit the barrel, making the comp stick to it. If this happens to you, do you scrape it off or leave it? I've been scraping, since it's eating half of my composition - Can't afford that. Is this a common problem?

Adding a picture to show what I'm talking about. As you can see, I have scraped off most of the comp while rolling.

http://i60.tinypic.com/70jdsk.jpg

 

2. Getting the stars round. The size are of course uneven, as I'm a beginner, but I'm leaving that problem for later. I'm thinking I should get the stars round first.

As of today, I've been rolling Tigertail on blue cut cores (square, about 3mm). They seem to be slowly taking a round shape, but I suspect I could have done way better?

http://i57.tinypic.com/vryet1.jpg

 

Would it be easier to use the toro method?

Any advice is highly appreciated. Please ask for more details if necessary!

Edited November 12, 2014 by enanthate

[enanthate]

It just occured to me, could it be too few stars? Maybe the barrel needs twice the amount to make them roll properly. Am i on to something?

[Col]

Small batches are harder to roll, a big pile of stars is a bigger target for the mist sprayer.

[Bobosan]

Try starting with more cores and the overspray should be reduced. I also have occasional overspray which causes the comp to stick to the stainless bowl but I can change the bowl angle so the stars ride over the stuck comp and with patience, they eventually pick it up off the bowl. The key is to get as close to the cores as possible before you spray and your sprayer should be an atomizer type.

 

I have scraped stuck comp before and if the stars don't pick all the loose comp up, the scraped comp will start to form cores and stars on there own.

[enanthate]

I do have an atomizer spray, although it sprays widely. Will try more cores then.

How about stainless steel, is that better than plastic? Any advice on shape? I'm rolling "in the corner" of the bucket, and suspect that I should let the stars roll more on the flat side, by tilting it down a bit. Will make an edge so they don't fall out, and try this as well.

Thanks.

[schroedinger]

First i would take a 2nd bucket and insert it onto the first one, also try how it works without sanding the bucket.

Second use round heavy cores for beginning and use at least 1 cup of cores with that size of roller.

 

Comp that sticks to the walls most times comes most times from walls getting to wet. Use less water and tumble for at least 1 min between the increments. If comp sticks to the walls, scrape it of, so that the stars can pick it up. If it feels really wet and straight sticks to the walls again, then scrape it out and pump it.

 

Also what is the diameter and at how many rpm's is it spinning. Maybe do a video of 1 cup of rape seed or similar rolling dry in the drum. This will really make it easier to help.

[Jakenbake]

Schroedinger how many stars have you ever rolled?? As Boboson stated earlier if you scrap the comp off the side of the bowl you end multiplying star cores quickly.

 

To minimize the comp on the side of the bowl every so often get the stars really wet to where they start sliding and let them go like that for a few minutes. You should start to see the walls clean up. The key is to get the stars wetter then the comp is on the side of the bowl.

 

High charcoal comps have to be about the cleanest comp as far as the bowl is concerned. Red gum can be even worse.

 

If you can vary the rpm that will help tremendously. When the stars are cores you need lower speed to get them rolling right. To high rpm and you get a lot of waste on the bowl. As the stars get bigger you can then increase the speed slightly.

Take your time, and be patient.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Jakenbake

[schroedinger]

Schroedinger how many stars have you ever rolled?? As Boboson stated earlier if you scrap the comp off the side of the bowl you end multiplying star cores quickly.

 

Enough i think, but if you read the coment above from bobosan:

I have scraped stuck comp before and if the stars don't pick all the loose comp up, the scraped comp will start to form cores and stars on there own.

 

You will see that both things will happen, but if you know your comp and imediatly scrape the comp of the wall you will find your stars to pick up nearly everything, but like said before you will need to learn when the water content is to high in the srape off, to do so. If it is to high it will stick again to the walls of will just form cores/doesn't get picked up. Then you need to take it out.

 

Spraying the comp directly on the walls is reportet to give results, but from my experience only really work if the stars have allready at least about 6 mm of diameter, the dryer the stars are, the better. If you do it on smaler stars, the resulting toro is so sticky that it allows the stars to accumulate into multicores or makes parts of the pile stick to the wall.

[Maserface]

uneven stars and HALF the composition sticking? Sloooooow down

[Bobosan]

I do have an atomizer spray, although it sprays widely. Will try more cores then.

How about stainless steel, is that better than plastic? Any advice on shape? I'm rolling "in the corner" of the bucket, and suspect that I should let the stars roll more on the flat side, by tilting it down a bit. Will make an edge so they don't fall out, and try this as well.

Thanks.

 

Sometimes stainless bowls can be a problem to get stars to roll rather than slide. I've roughened the inside up with 80-60 grit sand paper to help reduce this problem. Also, lead cores will roll easier and help you get a feel for rolling. Many people use plastic with better success than stainless. Look for a mostly rounded bottom bowl similar to the one pictured here.

 

[enanthate]

You're probably right maser, I stress too much doing this..

 

That's the exact bowl I'm considering on buying, Bobo. Got it available at only 24cm dia, while my current is 32cm. I recently started thinking that star rolling usually requires larger bowls, but I might have been wrong? Is 24cm (10") dia OK?

 

Got variable RPM. I have also tried what you mentioned, schroedinger, with a second bowl inside this one. Also tried without sanding the bowl, sanding seemed better.

Will try with the second bowl for smaller stars though, as this sounds reasonable. Then move to the bigger one as the stars grow in size.

 

Thanks for helpful replies! I'm off to buy that stainless steel bowl unless it's too small(?).

 

 

edit: As for scraping stuck comp, I agree that scraping it right away usually gives quite a dry powder, while letting it stick for just a short period of time, usually makes it too wet and is thrown out. I could have pumped the remainings, will do that next time. Cheers.

Schroedinger, a video will come as soon as I roll my next comp. Will probably replace the bowl until then, but I'm sure I will still have issues

Edited November 12, 2014 by enanthate

[Bobosan]

Go for the bigger bowl, enan. Will make it much easier to get the spritz bottle inside to direct the spray onto stars rather than the bowl.

[enanthate]

The bigger one is plastic, sure stainless steel isn't better? It's very tempting to try..

Getting the bottle inside is no problem though, and I'm thinking the stars will cover more of the bowl, making it easier to spritz only the stars.

 

Another issue is stars falling out when growing in size.This is the kindof bowl I'm currently using, as you can see the walls are too short:

http://www.wowestores.co.uk/images/products/WE090006Bmain1.jpg

Edited November 12, 2014 by enanthate

[Bobosan]

Don't know if a Walmart is nearby but that is where you'll find 3 separate sizes of stainless bowls. The large one works best.

[enanthate]

The largest I can find around here is 24cm (5 litres). It looks exactly as yours from the picture though. How big is yours in diameter?

Edited November 12, 2014 by enanthate

[Bobosan]

12 inches or 30cm rim to rim.

[MrB]

14"

http://www.ikea.com/us/en/images/products/blanda-blank-serving-bowl__16016_PE100292_S4.JPG

 

I'm thinking of getting two, have someone take of the inside edge, weld them together, and cut a small hole on the end. (8-10")

The ideal shape for a star rolling machine seams hard to find, and when you find it, it's to freaking expensive.

The "best" so far really is a car tire, set on a roller, and tilted somewhat to the side. But the uneven inside makes it none perfect.

 

Also, the smoother the surface of the bowl, the better the stars seem to come out, but they are a LOT harder to get started. I don't have the issue where composition actually sticks to the walls of the roller, but i tend to intentionally spray the roller rather then the stars, leave it spinning for a bit, and come back dusting the "front" of the stars, and then again leave it to spin for a bit, and so over until the stars no longer look wet when i come back. My main issues is that the stars refuse to maintain a round shape, instead they turn elliptical, or eggshaped, and the sizes are all over the place. I blame the shape of the rollers mostly. I mean, it cant be ME, i'm perfect...

B!

[schroedinger]

B! you mean something like this? (See pic)

It works quite nice but only with stars of at least 8 mm (maybe smaller with more rpm than a wiper motor has).

But for smaler ones just insert a bucket into the front whole and everything is perfect.

Edited November 13, 2014 by schroedinger

[Col]

I use a 195/55 x 15 tyre, the inner surface is fairly smooth and uniform with no lumps or bumps.

[MrB]

B! you mean something like this? (See pic)

Yeah. I think i've seen that picture before. Or a similar one. Thats where i got the idea anyway.

Does the joint leak? I've been playing around with the idea, and always ended up having it welded all the way around, and then simply grind / polish the inside until it's "undetectable".

Also, i think the bowls make for a good sphere, so i might have the whole thing turned on the side, and put the "pin" to connect it to the engine on the joining equator line, and cut the hole on the opposite side. To avoid "running" stars in that track, if it doesn't turn out "perfect".

 

A lot of "" but hey...

 

I use a 195/55 x 15 tyre, the inner surface is fairly smooth and uniform with no lumps or bumps.

I'm not sure if the tire i've been using is a cheap one, or what, but the surface on the inside has a bunch of diagonal ridges, i've assumed from the cords inside the rubber. While it could easily be sanded down or something, it' just to large for my workspace anyway, so i hope to find something more suitable.

Preferably "off the shelf" but it looks more and more as if i have to cave in and have something made.

 

B!

[schroedinger]

No the seam is tight, if you look at it it looks quite flimsy as there are just a couple welding spots on the outside but on the inside its 100% smooth and made ut of a nice thick VA much stronger than a normal bowl

[Col]

part worn kart tyres are good (and cheap) if you need something more compact. Take a jigsaw to one side to make the hole bigger for better access. As long as you dont go mad there`ll be enough rigidity in the remaining wall to keep it round.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Col

[max]

B! you mean something like this? (See pic)

It works quite nice but only with stars of at least 8 mm (maybe smaller with more rpm than a wiper motor has).

 

But for smaler ones just insert a bucket into the front whole and everything is perfect.

I don't know where from you have this photo, but it is my property ( DSC00176.jpg ) and I never let you show it, delete it !

Edited November 13, 2014 by max

[schroedinger]

 

I don't know where from you have this photo, but it is my property ( DSC00176.jpg ) and I never let you show it, delete it !

 

 

Sry max didn't knew that, took it off will replace it with a similar new one i made myself.

[MrB]

I don't know where from you have this photo, but it is my property ( DSC00176.jpg ) and I never let you show it, delete it !

I'm pretty sure that if he had it and could publish it, it means you published it somewhere. Reposting it in a thread like this is then fair use. If he remembers who posted it where he got it from, it would be customary to credit the creator, or simply point out that he wasn't the creator, and doesn't know it's origin. The very most you could demand is to get credited, but with the hostility you show i for sure wouldn't have removed it.

The rules & laws are slightly different when the picture is considered "art" but this wasn't. Which pretty much means you can get of your high horse, and play nice with us other kids. Acting like a spoiled kid isn't the most befriending way, and will only end up in you getting treated worse. But then again, that might be what you want, what do i know.

B!