50AE Posted February 17, 2009 Posted February 17, 2009 Do you mean that fiberglass can be used instead of strip pasting ? Or to improve it ?
Richtee Posted February 17, 2009 Posted February 17, 2009 Do you mean that fiberglass can be used instead of strip pasting ? Or to improve it ? I use only fiberglass tape. But as suggested to me by others here, it takes a goodly amount. I cover the shell between 2 and 3 times completely. And also, I found- at least with MY tape, that the lift CAN damage the tape. Won't kill it...but I have ended up with "streamers" of tape flying in the breeze on shells, killing the lift height due to air resistance. So, I add a covering or two of paper adhered with spray contact adhesve.
Chris Posted February 17, 2009 Author Posted February 17, 2009 I use only fiberglass tape. But as suggested to me by others here, it takes a goodly amount. I cover the shell between 2 and 3 times completely. And also, I found- at least with MY tape, that the lift CAN damage the tape. Won't kill it...but I have ended up with "streamers" of tape flying in the breeze on shells, killing the lift height due to air resistance. So, I add a covering or two of paper adhered with spray contact adhesve. Another good trick to protect the tape is to cover the shell with one layer of aluminum tape, or similar.
Mumbles Posted February 17, 2009 Posted February 17, 2009 My personal belief is that all the fiberglass and aluminum tapes ruin part of the fun of shell building. It's not the same if I can crank out 50 shells in a few hours. It's quality over quantity for me. I've tried it with both ways, and I get more reproducible and symmetrical results from all(or nearly all) paper. It might be because I switched from plastic and tape over to paper all at once. I don't care for the not so environmentally friendly fall out either. I'm not saying good results cannot be done with tape, plastic shells, and the like. I'm also not much of a fan of where the general trends of building are going. Everyone wants huge breaks, everything has flash in it, and they want to do it without a lot of work. Sounds just like chinese manufacturing ideals. As for insert shells, if they're not breaking somewhat symmetrically, you don't have them dialed in. They're more intended to give a "splash" of color to the sky, but there is a general symmetrical shape to them. Hose breaks and the like are characteristics of improperly built shells. Improper as in not dialed in to your specific materials, not bad technique. Some, including myself, have found that a lack of horizontal verticals while spiking, or end disks instead of just paper folds, will give better breaks. I get great breaks from just adding granular BP. Danny uses a defined amount of Whistle. The prime layer on the stars also plays a critical role in his success. /pseudorant
psyco_1322 Posted February 17, 2009 Posted February 17, 2009 I forgot to mention that using tape will not make for the best breaks. For the most symmetrical breaks, I use paper shells, and paper pasting. I would say tape is good when you want to put up a small shell (3") to test some stars in a hurry. There is no waiting and you get to see the same effect in the air.
Richtee Posted February 17, 2009 Posted February 17, 2009 My personal belief is that all the fiberglass and aluminum tapes ruin part of the fun of shell building. It's not the same if I can crank out 50 shells in a few hours. It's quality over quantity for me./pseudorant I can relate. I have one hobby/skill where there IS NO way to ensure quality without the extra work. Fine meat products/curing. Soo..I guess I sacrifice one for the other a bit. I AM gonna order a couple dozen 3" paper hemi's and take a run at pasting some day. My conscience requires it ;{)
Bonny Posted February 17, 2009 Posted February 17, 2009 I have bought a few rolls of Fiberglass strapping tape and am waiting for them to arrive, and I am wondering If I can use them to "paste" 3" round PAPER shells. I haven't found much information about this except for the 1st page of this thread and a little bit on youtube. My Question: Has anyone used Fiberglass strapping tape for "pasting" paper round shells and did they have any success and what bursts did they use? If no one has had any experience with then I will try it and find out myself. I missed this post the other day I guess...I pasted a 3" paper ball shell with fiberglass strapping tape awhile ago and would not do so again. IIRC correctly about 4 layers.The break (BP on vermiculite with ~5g whistle mix) was way too hard and blew most of the stars blind. The stars that did light were blown in a much wider spread than a 3" should have, making it even more "sparse".
Richtee Posted February 17, 2009 Posted February 17, 2009 I missed this post the other day I guess...I pasted a 3" paper ball shell with fiberglass strapping tape awhile ago and would not do so again. IIRC correctly about 4 layers.The break (BP on vermiculite with ~5g whistle mix) was way too hard and blew most of the stars blind. The stars that did light were blown in a much wider spread than a 3" should have, making it even more "sparse".Can you definitivly blame that on the tape...or perhaps too much tape? One shell does not a Q.E.D. make.
moof Posted February 17, 2009 Posted February 17, 2009 My personal belief is that all the fiberglass and aluminum tapes ruin part of the fun of shell building. It's not the same if I can crank out 50 shells in a few hours. It's quality over quantity for me. I've tried it with both ways, and I get more reproducible and symmetrical results from all(or nearly all) paper. It might be because I switched from plastic and tape over to paper all at once. I don't care for the not so environmentally friendly fall out either. I'm not saying good results cannot be done with tape, plastic shells, and the like. I'm also not much of a fan of where the general trends of building are going. Everyone wants huge breaks, everything has flash in it, and they want to do it without a lot of work. Sounds just like chinese manufacturing ideals. As for insert shells, if they're not breaking somewhat symmetrically, you don't have them dialed in. They're more intended to give a "splash" of color to the sky, but there is a general symmetrical shape to them. Hose breaks and the like are characteristics of improperly built shells. Improper as in not dialed in to your specific materials, not bad technique. Some, including myself, have found that a lack of horizontal verticals while spiking, or end disks instead of just paper folds, will give better breaks. I get great breaks from just adding granular BP. Danny uses a defined amount of Whistle. The prime layer on the stars also plays a critical role in his success. /pseudorant Thanks for the quick response. Do you believe that building these small shells is a good way of starting off in aerial shell construction? Also, could you please clarify what "hose break" means?
Mumbles Posted February 17, 2009 Posted February 17, 2009 It certainly can be a good way to start off. They can be fired alone, just as easily as placed as inserts into shells. 1 1/4" ID shells as you describe fit very well into 1 1/2" mortars. It doesn't replicate the same skill set needed to build larger shells, but there is some similarity. You'd definitely be at an advantage if you ever start building fancier and bigger shells such as sun and planet, or timed spiders or the like. I'll try to find a picture of video of a hose break for you later. It would be like if you put too much pressure on a hose, and it ruptured. It results in a split down the side, and everything shooting out in one direction. There's a specific type of shell called a "horsetail" where this is desired. It results from weak spots in the shell, or underconfinement. Too strong of confinement can result in blowing your stars blind, or worse shattering them completely. It's a balancing act.
Bonny Posted February 17, 2009 Posted February 17, 2009 Can you definitivly blame that on the tape...or perhaps too much tape? One shell does not a Q.E.D. make.Too many layers could be the issue.I'm not 100% sure, but I don't have the same problem when pasting in the traditional fashion of paper strips and wheat paste or even diluted PVA glue. I'll try to find a picture of video of a hose break for you later. It would be like if you put too much pressure on a hose, and it ruptured. It results in a split down the side, and everything shooting out in one direction. Doesn't a hose break also refer to when one end blows out of a cannister shell too?
swervedriver Posted February 17, 2009 Posted February 17, 2009 Hey Bonny, you certainly know more than me about this stuff, isn't 5g of whistle boost on the higher side for a 3" paper shell? Or no? I've used around 3 grams of whistle before with BP burst. That seemed to work, I'm using plastic though and it's not an apple to apple comparison I guess.
psyco_1322 Posted February 17, 2009 Posted February 17, 2009 I would say 5g of whistle with 4 layers of tape would be a bit too much. I had good spread with just 3g and about 3 layers. It also depends on what the tape is rated at. I used 110lb right now.
ST1DinOH Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 just weighing in here... i've had great results using BP on rice hulls for a break in plastic hemi's at first i was using a ton of fiber tape, but i found that between the xylene weld and a few strips of tape applied correctly vertically over the seam i had the same results. not sure about larger shells, but i've made 1.75's, 3's and 6's this way and haven't had any trouble. i use no flash or whistle bags and i'm using all GOEX BP (lift and break). the one time i tried pasting paper over shells it looked like crap, took forever, and made a huge unnecessary mess. i may give paper another try someday, but plastic is the only way to go for me for the moment.
50AE Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 (edited) I forgot to mention that using tape will not make for the best breaks. For the most symmetrical breaks, I use paper shells, and paper pasting. I would say tape is good when you want to put up a small shell (3") to test some stars in a hurry. There is no waiting and you get to see the same effect in the air. That's what I thought too. Anyway, gonna buy some tape, in case I'm in a hurry sometime Edited February 18, 2009 by 50AE
Swede Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 Question: If the tape on a small shell is placed with perfect symmetry, would it help in the symmetry of the break as well?
psyco_1322 Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 (edited) If you get some tape, I would suggest this site: www.emgepaper.com Swede, It might very well help it break symmetrically. One thing with tape that I think causes the crappy performances is the tapes stickiness itself. I've made quite a few 3" ball shells with homemade paper hemis and then wrapped them up with tape. They usually come out looking rather nice. I do find remains of them about the firing area. Unlike a paper pasted shell that shatters into a hundred little piece, the taped shells seem to stay in larger chunks of charred, twisted, broken tape. The tape may have a little give to it right before the shell ruptures and this might cause one side or section to give away easier, possibly causing a off shape break. I dont think its enough to cause a horse tail or dumping effect, unless you just dont put enough tape on it. Edited February 18, 2009 by psyco_1322
Mumbles Posted February 19, 2009 Posted February 19, 2009 I couldn't find a good video of a horsetail break. It's something like this though. It's a rocket, but the header resembles a hosebreak, or horsetail, or end break, or whatever you want to call it.
tentacles Posted February 19, 2009 Posted February 19, 2009 Question: If the tape on a small shell is placed with perfect symmetry, would it help in the symmetry of the break as well? Having asked Linda Westfall that very question in Gilette last summer, her response was that it doesn't really matter, what matters is either using the heavy 300lb/in tape, or using 3-4x as much of the cheap 75lb/in stuff. Her 5" plastic shells were breaking gloriously every night, and she's considered the guru of plastic shells. She doesn't even glue the hemis together.
psyco_1322 Posted February 19, 2009 Posted February 19, 2009 She does make some really great shells. She puts those things through a short abused life in the process of making them, or so I've seen. She beat a gap closed on a shell that I would have definitely figured would need some burst removed. Rob also puts them up on some really nice rockets. Lots of Flaming Shit in those things, shell and rocket!
Mumbles Posted February 19, 2009 Posted February 19, 2009 Thats the trick to making good ball shells. They should not go together willingly. You must beat them into submission for them to obey. I generally try to leave around 3/8" gap, and then Mr. Tappy goes to work.
psyco_1322 Posted February 19, 2009 Posted February 19, 2009 I think I broke a 4" plastic shell closing it at the convention, or maybe it was at home. Can't remember. I was rapping it close and the casing just cracked. Still worked ok from what I remember.
PyroMan LTU Posted February 22, 2009 Posted February 22, 2009 Hello. This saturday I have fired my first pyro show: everything is wrote in the description of the video PyroMan LTU
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