Improved black powder rockets IBP VITAMIN F assisted

[jl88]

Okay so I have done a fair bit of looking into this but there isn't a whole lot of info readily available... I saw ddewees post a few movies on IBP rockets and all I have to say, wow.

 

 

Now if any one has more comprehensive build info (I know it is covered shortly after these video posts) I'd love to see more threads.

 

Also, the main things that attract me to this kind of rocket are that I LOVE strobe rockets, and have struggled with AP Types. Also it seems that these would also lift a fair payload? Is that true? Also is the strobe always present? (Obviously not with blue aluminium)

 

Thanks guys and gals,

Jack

[ddewees]

There isn't a lot of info on these, because most people shy away from pressing rockets with that high a content of flash powder (i assume).

 

I've had the best success with them when pressed to 10,000 psi... with zero cato's.

 

 

They don't actually "strobe" per se... but you will get that popping sound on occasion. I've started making them with inferior chems (I had started with Wecco KP, and Star Molecule Al, and course Mg/Al) and that sound has all but gone away. I actually forgot about that popping, and did enjoy it. It's likely a result of using 80-200 mg/al...

 

If I were to go back to making these, I'd probably stick with the 80-200 mg/al... rather than the 325 stuff that is in such large abundance now since the Hunter group buy.

 

 

One thing I've been having issues with, is they can actually tear loose from the stick using tape or hot glue... they take off so fast. We were experiencing this a lot at our last club shoot in September. They turn into spiraling corkscrews up in the sky. Fun to watch... but not the same as the expected bullet that goes 1 mile in 1 second.

 

Have fun... and be careful. TR asked me personally to stop making those... claimed I was too nice a guy to end up a statistic.

[modelrocket]

that thing is epic. I must add though that I immediately felt scared for them..

[ddewees]

I just realized the title is "Improved Black Powder... IBP", the "I" was originally intended to mean "Insane"

[modelrocket]

I just realized the title is "Improved Black Powder... IBP", the "I" was originally intended to mean "Insane"

it suits the rocket.

[ddewees]

This video captures the reaction of most people who witness these motors up close... it's a great feeling.

 

(It's the second rocket in this video)

 

[Video]

[Seymour]

 

Have fun... and be careful. TR asked me personally to stop making those... claimed I was too nice a guy to end up a statistic.

 

 

Does this mean I've succeeded in life? I'm not sure if it makes me happy or scared.

 

I also got the 'strobing' early in my development of BP-flash fuels. I quite liked it, but now that I use fine Paulownia corning dust they fly smooth and no longer have a habit of actually leaving pieces of fuel behind... which caused a friend to name them 'vomit rockets'.

 

I personally use 100-200 mesh MgAl, 5413 super Al and 2.5% wax. The black powder and Aluminium are the two most critical factors.

 

So since it's not posted in this thread the standard formula is 60% BP, 30% Flash (70/30), 10% MgAl + wax. However recently I've personally been doing some work with 55/30/15. It's even less efficient, more metal and bigger flame

 

While nossleless rockets see to be the most popular use of this fuel on this forum, I actually originally developed it with end burners in mind, wanting ok power and a much bigger flame than you get with BP.

 

Turns out they work in all sorts of motor shapes and sizes, While catos are often pretty bloody good salutes, they are overall very forgiving.

 

Bump the wax content up to 5% and you can even make cored rockets with nossles.

 

I still call the fuel "6/3/1 Metal" but Insane BP has a nice ring to it!

Edited October 24, 2014 by Seymour

[ddewees]

 

I figure if you're still around, I'm fairly safe.

 

I use 2.1% wax (21 grams in a kilo batch)... good stuff.

 

 

Thanks again Seymour, your formulas are what keep me entertained in this hobby.

[ddewees]

One thing I'll also mention with these... often times when pressing, I'll get a "tinking" sound and feeling when removing tooling. It's almost like the sound of two glasses being tapped together. I've also gotten a "hot" smell from these... meaning it almost smells like burnt bp when removing tooling.

 

I'm not sure how safe or unsafe these rockets are to press... but most people I talk to don't like them because of the composition.

[MWJ]

I'm guessing that this formula should be pressed only and not rammed with a hammer?

[MWJ]

Can you use VF using blue Al.?

[ddewees]

I would only press it myself, and yes... blue aluminum works too.

 

[Video]

 

The only noticeable difference is that the rocket seems to take off immediately, rather than sitting on the rack glowing... I prefer the delayed launch personally.

[otto]

This video captures the reaction of most people who witness these motors up close... it's a great feeling.

 

(It's the second rocket in this video)

 

[Video]

I'm a long way from monkeying with this kind of stuff but WOW! The word Holy Crap-o-rama comes to mind......

[MrB]

These things goes like hell, very impressive, but they scare me. But i sort of have something i'd like to point out.

Every now and then someone pulls numbers out of their hat, stuff like:

 

So since it's not posted in this thread the standard formula is 60% BP, 30% Flash (70/30), 10% MgAl + wax.

And it's very nice of Seymour to drop the numbers here, but, i actually want to object to these numbers anyway.

It doesn't specify what BP your assuming people use. "The right" stuff, 75/15/10% some 60/30/10 flavor rocket propellant BP, or the "really good" formula, 74.64/13.51/11.85%. Same goes for the 70/30 flash. Again, one could assume it's perchlorate/aluminum, but the kind of alu makes for a large difference, and there is also always the possibility that someone jumps to the logical conclusion of some other flash they use with the same proportions. Chlorate flash, anyone? With the sulfur from the BP we know it's a bad idea, but they might not. When we drop these kinds of info, can we please use the full composition descriptions?

 

@Seymour:

I hope your not going to take this as some sort of attack on you. It's not. I read your post last night, or early this morning, and there was just something about it that wouldn't leave me alone. At lunch today i figured it out, it's the composition, and the way it leaves a lot unsaid, stuff that could get someone hurt. First now 12 hours after lunch i decided to write something about it, after returning to the post and rethinking the post i've been wanting to make for a while. I would have posted it hours ago, but i couldn't figure out how to formulate it, as i said, i don't intend to "talk down" on anyone, but the subject doesn't really leave much room for anything that sounds less like the teachers pet trying to scold everyone else. Trust me, i never was the teachers pet. Thank you for sharing, i hope you will keep on doing so.

B!

Edited October 23, 2014 by MrB

[Seymour]

You are completely right MrB!

 

I use 75/15/10 for the black powder and perchlorate only for the flash powder.

 

The black powder is obviously milled on it's own. I then screen the perchlorate through a fine mesh, hand mix all components except wax, and finally screen all through a 40 mesh before adding the wax dissolved in a solvent and drying somewhere away from sources of ignition.

 

And I would NEVER ram these compositions. I'm not completely sure how likely to ignite these are during pressing, but with all that MgAl and the dark flake I think it's fair to assume it is more sensitive than whistle mix, and the consequences of an explosion would be similar ( devastating)

 

These rockets are still very much experimental, the dangers are not fully known, other than a general belief that they are high.

 

I would be very surprised if I was the first person to mix black powder, perchlorate and reactive metals for a rocket fuel. I have heard that some flare rockets use a similar mixture (but Al only, no MgAl). I would be interested if anyone had any information on similar mixes, particularly in regards to safety.

 

 

One thing I'll also mention with these... often times when pressing, I'll get a "tinking" sound and feeling when removing tooling. It's almost like the sound of two glasses being tapped together. I've also gotten a "hot" smell from these... meaning it almost smells like burnt bp when removing tooling.

 

I've never had the 'tinking' sound, at least as far as I'm aware, but I do tend to press my ones quite gently and go with short cores, so it could be a density thing. That 'hot smell' I do know. I don't particularly like it. I don't know what it is.

 

 

I figure if you're still around, I'm fairly safe.

 

Perhaps, but it's probably not a good idea to assume too much. Accidents happen to more skilled, knowledgeable and experienced pyros than me.

Edited October 24, 2014 by Seymour

[Zmuro]

So I can use standard BP nozzless tooling with this fuel?

[ddewees]

So I can use standard BP nozzless tooling with this fuel?

Yes, and that's likely the best configuration too. Light the edge of the fuel, as you would whistle.

[Maserface]

 

Does this mean I've succeeded in life? I'm not sure if it makes me happy or scared.

 

I also got the 'strobing' early in my development of BP-flash fuels. I quite liked it, but now that I use fine Paulownia corning dust they fly smooth and no longer have a habit of actually leaving pieces of fuel behind... which caused a friend to name them 'vomit rockets'.

 

I personally use 100-200 mesh MgAl, 5413 super Al and 2.5% wax. The black powder and Aluminium are the two most critical factors.

 

So since it's not posted in this thread the standard formula is 60% BP, 30% Flash (70/30), 10% MgAl + wax. However recently I've personally been doing some work with 55/30/15. It's even less efficient, more metal and bigger flame

 

While nossleless rockets see to be the most popular use of this fuel on this forum, I actually originally developed it with end burners in mind, wanting ok power and a much bigger flame than you get with BP.

 

Turns out they work in all sorts of motor shapes and sizes, While catos are often pretty bloody good salutes, they are overall very forgiving.

 

Bump the wax content up to 5% and you can even make cored rockets with nossles.

 

I still call the fuel "6/3/1 Metal" but Insane BP has a nice ring to it!

 

 

I love it! I second what Ddewees said, your fuel developments are probably my favorite thing about fireworks at this point (one of these days ill tube launch some )

 

I think using corning dust or meal D is somewhat vital, I used right out of the mill pine and they were just too damn hot! Impressive catos though Ive almost got my hydraulic press goin and when I do im determined to nozzle these, and nozzle whistle

 

#teamseymour

[MWJ]

I'm getting a press!! Those are awesome! That is after more research on doing this safely.

[Col]

If you make it a remotely operated press, you can be 20yds away

[ddewees]

I've posted this elsewhere, but figured it was worth adding here too.

 

This was six IBP motors clustered, lifting a large header. Total rocket weight exceeded 20lbs.

 

[Video]

[dagabu]

Thats really impressive DD!

[MWJ]

That's incredible! Very Nice!!

[Jakenbake]

Yup DD that was one bad MoFo! The sound of those motors together gave me a serious chubby!

[ddewees]

Starting to test these using lower pressures... gradually. Today's flight was a success. 9000 psi (I know, still not exactly "low pressure") and it flew great. Amazing how going to 10k psi can really start to damage the look of a tube (shirking, wrinkles, etc)... I'm not a fan of wax on the tubes, just in the fuel.

 

nice flame though...

 

http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o588/SaltLakeAreaPyros/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_2014-11-02-14-15-03_zps7270eced.png