MrB Posted October 7, 2014 Posted October 7, 2014 Tip, if you use nylon or non conducting material for the mounts you can use a multimeter/continuity test to set up the blades. Connect a probe to an axle and one to the mandrel, adjust the stop point until it beeps and then back it off a smidge.I'm thinking ceramic / hybrid ceramic bearings for the cutting rig, if going that route. The blades will score grooves in your mandrel if they cut too deep. Thats what i want to avoid. Since the cuts would mostly be in the same places over and over, even a slight hint at it every time makes a "deep" grove over time. And then stings start to go ugly when you try and push things of the mandrel. Tossing ideas is nice enough, if nothing else it helps to figure out what you want to add, or remove from a creation. Thanks.B!
jessoman Posted October 7, 2014 Posted October 7, 2014 Woah haven't you boys been busy . I go away for a few weeks and this thread gets wild. I got some reading to do. Have we found the perfect glue yet ??? That casein is good stuff isn't it!
mkn Posted October 7, 2014 Author Posted October 7, 2014 Yes, a lot of great info compiled in to this thread ! Debunking the myths and hurdles for tube rolling. Also working on tests with pressing rocket fuels at lower pressures in waxed tubes in another thread, to use less than stellar home tubes or weaker commercial tubes. Glue- I'm still trying to get to Col recommendation on solids % in casein glue, my first batch was 22%, this last one was 38% still short for the recommended 50- 60% The casein makes them rock hard ! with my recycled Kraft my test pressures are lower, so that is what inspired the testing with lower pressures on the comp. Col pointed out that casein prevents heat transfer much better than PVA like Elmer's. Which is a great trait for end burners Dagabu pointed out that the casein's low initial tack helps the paper to lay smoother and consolidate easier for great rolling. Everyone has been adding great material to this thread, not to leave out anyone's contributions, can't summarize this thread in two sentences ! So far I am feeling that I may have weaned myself from commercial tubes and feeling the freedom of spending that money on more pyro, I mean flowers for my wife..... More testing to do with casein, I feel I may need to look at some virgin Kraft to see if my pressures will increase. May not need to with lower pressure on the comp, so far 4oz is no problem BP or (tame) whistle. Next up 1#........ I have started to precut and rotate 90 degrees, to roll with the small grain present in recycled kraft. It helps with tube removal with the casein Matt
Col Posted October 8, 2014 Posted October 8, 2014 (edited) Hi Matt38% is much better than 22%,w whichever way you look at it.The reduced heat transfer in the test came from the silicate, it adds tack and strength, downside: quite brittle, adds a lot of weight to the tube and is messy/hazardous to work with. Lime casein provides moisture resistance and strength, downside: lacks tack and is also quite brittle. Dex provides strength, flexibility and initial tack, downside: lacks moisture resistance. The silicate is good in some applications but for most tubes, the casein and dex are plenty good enough on their own. Edited October 8, 2014 by Col
stix Posted October 8, 2014 Posted October 8, 2014 I'm going have a crack at making casein glue and test it against my sodium silicate tubes. I've made 2 x (smallish) approx. 6mmID x .5mm for tubes for this exact experiment/test. A couple of questions: After it's made in the liquid form, how long does it last, ie. does it go off like wheat paste?Have you tried making casein "powder", then dissolve in alkaline solution, ie. water + baking powder or calcium hydroxide etc...? Your advice appreciated. Cheers, Steve.
dagabu Posted October 8, 2014 Posted October 8, 2014 I'm going have a crack at making casein glue and test it against my sodium silicate tubes. I've made 2 x (smallish) approx. 6mmID x .5mm for tubes for this exact experiment/test. A couple of questions: After it's made in the liquid form, how long does it last, ie. does it go off like wheat paste?Have you tried making casein "powder", then dissolve in alkaline solution, ie. water + baking powder or calcium hydroxide etc...? Your advice appreciated. Cheers, Steve. It gelled up in about 11 hours and I couldn't get it liquid again. I have the powder, bought commercially, I used sodium carbonate. 1
jessoman Posted October 8, 2014 Posted October 8, 2014 My casein glue lasted a few days, I just took the layer of skin off the top each time. I ran out before it turned to jelly. That's my experience anyway... If you have your casein ground down fine enough making it to order isn't a problem. 1
stix Posted October 8, 2014 Posted October 8, 2014 Very interesting Dagabu, I've always relied on the 12hrs+ whipped and soaked in farkleberry juice method - it works every time. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. Cheers, Steve.
stix Posted October 8, 2014 Posted October 8, 2014 (edited) My casein glue lasted a few days, I just took the layer of skin off the top each time. I ran out before it turned to jelly. That's my experience anyway...If you have your casein ground down fine enough making it to order isn't a problem. Thanks Jesso, that's pretty much as I thought. From my point, I guess I'll have to 'walk the talk' or something similar.What I mean is that I should at least prove my own experiments. Cheers, Steve. Edited October 8, 2014 by stix
Col Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 I make fresh casein and freeze it in individual portions, taking advantage of reduced price skimmed milk when its available. Each frozen portion contains all the water needed for a single batch of glue. Its best to use the glue within a few days but it should last a week if you put it n the fridge. The best bet is not to make up more glue than you can use, 500ml should cover 100ft of paper 2ft wide which is enough for 45 1lb tubes with an 1/8" wall.
dagabu Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 My open time is about 11 hours, refrigeration does not help me.
Blackthumb Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 Is this the type of tube you are all looking for? Very hard convoluted. This sample happens to be 5/8 ID that I have by the thousands and shoot quite often in place of a 3/4"...if so, I am on the trail of the same in 3/4 and 1" ID to start...7.5" and 30" lengths.PM with interest.
Col Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 My open time is about 11 hours, refrigeration does not help me. You could try adding a small amount of sodium hydroxide or trisodium phosphate (TSP) to raise the ph. I guess if the casein powder has been preformulated as a glue it may include some "extras", like zinc to decrease the setting time. 11 hours would be more than plenty for gluing up wood joints.
dagabu Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 I really have no desire to increase the open time, I think 11 hours is a little generous as is. I would rather have seven to eight hours of open time, I think that is plenty for what we are doing.
Col Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 (edited) I think i`m confusing the pot life with open time, ideally the open time of the glue is just long enough to get it on the paper and develop initial tack before its rolled. In other words, the open time is the amount of time the glue should be left to set, before it is covered. Edited October 9, 2014 by Col
dagabu Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 Sorry, bad habit from the military, open time was the throw away time, pot life was irrelevant so I just use the two to indicate the same thing. Open time for me is about 9-10 hours pot life is 11 or so. It thickens and gels rapidly. Understand that this was a commercial powder, who knows what else is in there?
Bobosan Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 (edited) Not sure if it has been posted in this thread but there is some good info on casein glue in this document. http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplrn/fplrn158.pdf For anyone wanting to skip the DIY casein glue, might want to look here. http://robertdoakcolors.com/casein-glue-powder.html Edited October 9, 2014 by Bobosan 1
mkn Posted October 10, 2014 Author Posted October 10, 2014 Hi Matt38% is much better than 22%,w whichever way you look at it.The reduced heat transfer in the test came from the silicate, it adds tack and strength, downside: quite brittle, adds a lot of weight to the tube and is messy/hazardous to work with. Lime casein provides moisture resistance and strength, downside: lacks tack and is also quite brittle. Dex provides strength, flexibility and initial tack, downside: lacks moisture resistance. The silicate is good in some applications but for most tubes, the casein and dex are plenty good enough on their own. Getting there ! After reading Bobosans posted material I found out one reason I thought I had to add more water..... Not sure if it has been posted in this thread but there is some good info on casein glue in this document. http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplrn/fplrn158.pdf For anyone wanting to skip the DIY casein glue, might want to look here. http://robertdoakcolors.com/casein-glue-powder.html Great material Bobosan, I found out that my clumped up like dough and I thought I needed to add more water which brought me to the 38% solids. I should have let it sit and dissolve on its own maybe according to the material. Casein from scratch seems to be a day to two process. That link for a pound at $7.....interesting , I wonder how it is ?
dagabu Posted October 10, 2014 Posted October 10, 2014 Not sure if it has been posted in this thread but there is some good info on casein glue in this document. http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplrn/fplrn158.pdf For anyone wanting to skip the DIY casein glue, might want to look here. http://robertdoakcolors.com/casein-glue-powder.html Outstanding! Mum, can you sticky that post? That would make a great resource for us.
Bobosan Posted October 10, 2014 Posted October 10, 2014 That link for a pound at $7.....interesting , I wonder how it is ? I tried to order a couple pounds but minimum order on that site is $100. There are other art supply sites that have powdered casein at less than $10 a pound but have not ordered any. Seems the casein is an old school art medium for canvas/murals and other types of decorating.
dagabu Posted October 10, 2014 Posted October 10, 2014 Ask Cracker for some, it was absurdly low priced.
Bobosan Posted October 10, 2014 Posted October 10, 2014 From what we've been seeing, Cracker been AWOL for some folks. Not sure I'd want to chance it with him. He does, however, have some really interesting stuff at decent prices. Very tempting indeed.
mkn Posted October 10, 2014 Author Posted October 10, 2014 FYI - I just joined Fireworking this week and while scanning the pages on tube rolling I came across a drawing of a tube roller ( I think it was late 1800's early 1900's) of a three roller frame like the one I built. It was built to use your hand pressure instead of the lead weight bag I put on, but basicly the same unit. Kind of neat for me to see and re affirms the design of the three roller frame. ps: Hi to all the familiar "faces" from the two sites ! Matt
Col Posted October 10, 2014 Posted October 10, 2014 Not sure if it has been posted in this thread but there is some good info on casein glue in this document. http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplrn/fplrn158.pdf For anyone wanting to skip the DIY casein glue, might want to look here. http://robertdoakcolors.com/casein-glue-powder.htmlMost of the available info relates to casein`s for gluing wood so the recipes will need some tweaking or its similar to using super thick pva woodglue. The application rate for casein on wood joints is around 317gsm, 8x more than you need for paper.
dagabu Posted October 11, 2014 Posted October 11, 2014 IMG_0559.JPG Is this the type of tube you are all looking for? Very hard convoluted. This sample happens to be 5/8 ID that I have by the thousands and shoot quite often in place of a 3/4"...if so, I am on the trail of the same in 3/4 and 1" ID to start...7.5" and 30" lengths.PM with interest. In a side by side comparison, they appear to be NEPT tubes, wall thickness, paper, calendaring and glue all appear to be identical to my 5/8" NEPT tubes (full length). IMHO, well worth the price so far. NEXT UP: The pressure test! Side by side tube splitting using clay then a whistle rocket (November 1st).
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