Col Posted September 28, 2014 Posted September 28, 2014 Aye, 30 minutes in the slow cooker at 90C, then blitzed with a hand blender and left to cool. it has a cloudy appearance after cooking but gets fairly translucent and silky when left to sit overnight.
dagabu Posted October 1, 2014 Posted October 1, 2014 Hi all, I posted a few pics of the BASIC tube roller I put together. With appropriate mandrels, I have rolled sizes up to 1" Still waiting for them to fully dry, before an actual launch test. I can say, these look better than my hand rolled, more consistent quality tube to tube, and are already quite firm to hard with one day of drying. I have had good hand rolled tubes for BP and whistle, just a much lower percentage of acceptable tubes when hand rolled. If the tubes can hold their own under fire, I plan to post a video of it in operation to help others with the process. It was quite easy to assemble, not much of a learning curve to using, and the mandrels ( aluminum or SS rods) and conveyer rollers are available from McMaster Carr. .There are descriptions on the pics in my album link below, give me a shout with any questions. http://www.amateurpyro.com/forums/gallery/album/289-tube-roller/ tubes are great, drying with a slight / tiny curve on some. I don't think it will be an issue once they are cut to length.You can see not much run out on the ends, some are quite aligned. Matt I got a great price on some rollers off of eBay, they have the bearings already and are very light. Discount Steel has the 3/8" Hex Rod too, steel and aluminum. http://www.ebay.com/itm/400621006927?_trksid=p2060778.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Col Posted October 1, 2014 Posted October 1, 2014 Steel ones for the rolling machine, aluminium for the glue machine If they do 1" diameter steel rollers, buy 4 of those for rolling smaller id tubes (1/2"-1" id) and 4 standard 2" steel rollers for rolling 1" id and above.
dagabu Posted October 1, 2014 Posted October 1, 2014 Steel ones for the rolling machine, aluminium for the glue machine If they do 1" diameter steel rollers, buy 4 of those for rolling smaller id tubes (1/2"-1" id) and 4 standard 2" steel rollers for rolling 1" id and above. No thank you, I don't use steel around water or glues and don't care for galvanized steel either. I will be making the 3 tube roller for now since I know what size tubes I will be making and these give me just the right separation.
Col Posted October 1, 2014 Posted October 1, 2014 (edited) You shouldnt get much if any glue on the tube winding rollers or mandrel if the first turn is dry and the dry side of the paper is running against the rollers The glue rollers on some commercial rolling machines (like the nept machine) can be adjusted to leave the right amount of dry margin on the left hand edge of the paper for the tube id as it passes through the glue section. The dry bit ends up perfectly postioned underneath the mandrel ready to roll. Here`s a machine with a similar design to the nept jobbie that does dry paper margins (35 seconds in), It uses 4 rollers for 4mm to 20mm id tubes and costs $20,000 lol Edited October 1, 2014 by Col
MrB Posted October 1, 2014 Posted October 1, 2014 I just don't understand how these rollers work. I'd love to build one, but i cant figure out how the paper is grabbed, and guided around the mandrel. Is there some stupid simple building instructions somewhere where one can figure out this stuff? I wouldn't mind going over to "machine" rolled tubes rather then the paper tubes i use currently.B!
dagabu Posted October 1, 2014 Posted October 1, 2014 B, the whole thing is explained in the picture below: The pliers are attached to the mandrel, the mandrel is sandwiched between all three rollers, the paper is wound by hand around the mandrel (not shown) 1 turn and the pliers are used to turn the mandrel, wrapping the paper up and the rollers flatten and tighten the paper. I feel that the pliers should be replaced with a handwheel like this one from Amazon. http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61uY8SWYnWL._SL1500_.jpg
mkn Posted October 1, 2014 Author Posted October 1, 2014 What I like about the vice grips is that you can easily remove them and slide the remover device ( thick plastic with a slightly larger hole than the mandrel ) on to assist removing the tube. With a few more tubes of practice, and continued good results both rolling and launching, I can post a vid using it. I just don't understand how these rollers work. I'd love to build one, but i cant figure out how the paper is grabbed, and guided around the mandrel. Is there some stupid simple building instructions somewhere where one can figure out this stuff? I wouldn't mind going over to "machine" rolled tubes rather then the paper tubes i use currently.B! I have been using a real simple technique of folding the paper over the mandrel with an inch or two more past the mandrel, gluing that to the incoming paper then rolling as usual. It's hard to describe, but it is like a pouch or pocket for the mandrel, then the first turn or two of the mandrel is twice the paper till that over fold is gone and single thick paper is continued to roll. this also helps to keep the paper straight and perpendicular to the mandrel as the paper edges are lined up square.
dagabu Posted October 1, 2014 Posted October 1, 2014 What I like about the vice grips is that you can easily remove them and slide the remover device ( thick plastic with a slightly larger hole than the mandrel ) on to assist removing the tube. With a few more tubes of practice, and continued good results both rolling and launching, I can post a vid using it. I have been using a real simple technique of folding the paper over the mandrel with an inch or two more past the mandrel, gluing that to the incoming paper then rolling as usual. It's hard to describe, but it is like a pouch or pocket for the mandrel, then the first turn or two of the mandrel is twice the paper till that over fold is gone and single thick paper is continued to roll. this also helps to keep the paper straight and perpendicular to the mandrel as the paper edges are lined up square. There is no reason why you cant leave the puller on the mandrel why rolling it up... I like the pocket idea, you could make a bunch of those up in advance and roll them all up in one go!
mkn Posted October 1, 2014 Author Posted October 1, 2014 There is no reason why you cant leave the puller on the mandrel why rolling it up... I like the pocket idea, you could make a bunch of those up in advance and roll them all up in one go! Very True !! and the wheel looks a lot better !
dagabu Posted October 1, 2014 Posted October 1, 2014 Very True !! and the wheel looks a lot better ! My vision is to put the mandrel in a fork with the hand wheel acting as the stop and pulling the puller off the other way, it should be a simple operation unless your arms are too short! Then I suppose you would have to push the puller off...
MrB Posted October 1, 2014 Posted October 1, 2014 So the "trick" here is to manually start the tube, it doesn't roll it self up on the mandrel. Ok, makes sense. Also makes it a bit more of a hassle to use i suppose, but it's not really a big deal. Seams like it's a lot more consistent then hand rolling, and it should be a lot faster to. I was thinking i'd get a friend to make me a few different mandrels and spring load the lower two rollers. They would act as support and guides, while the top one adds the pressure. Through some research, i got access to 40 & 80gram craft, supposedly virgin, and on rolls from 57 to 150 cm wide.Guess i should figure out what width matches my most used tubes best, and order that since the width determines the thickness gained from a single layer. The length of the mandrel seams irrelevant, since you just roll of, and cut to what ever length you need. All right, that cleared up the main thing i didn't understand about these.Not sure, i think i might want some way to guide the paper on so it wraps on there by it self, but it might be a tad much to ask for considering the home built nature of the device. Guess i should also get accurate measurements on the tooling i use just to make sure the mandrels i get made is spot on.Anyone got quotes on expected tube wall thickness of ¼", 1", 1¼", & 1½" tubes made from craft? I've been using paper from my painters supply, stuff that soaks up lots of glue, is 100% recycled stuff, and quite cheap. But if i'm going to pretend to be serious about tubes, i'll have to switch to more reliable material, and realistic measurements will help the transition. 6.35, 25.4, 31.75 & 38,1mm seams to be the proper ID based on tool spec, but i'll have to go back and take measurements, it's mostly second hand stuff from Wolter Pyro, but i got a few cheap tools from un-named sources in china as well. Weirdly enough the 1½" tubes is a tight or lose fit depending on what tooling i use, and both of those are from Wolter... Currently i cheat, and use the rammers so i know i get the right dimensions, but that wont work for a "machine"... Anyway, i shouldn't derail this more with my thoughts. Thank you for the info.B!
Col Posted October 2, 2014 Posted October 2, 2014 (edited) To get the paper to wrap automatically spin the mandrel between two bearings at ~250rpm, it will grab the paper and tow it in as quick as getting your tie or hair caught in a drill press. The inertia tightens the paper and the tension across full width of the paper provides the compressive force. The rollers are only really there to guide the first turn around the mandrel.Consider a weighted roller with a single point of contact on the tube, if the roller sinks into the damp paper by a thou, you`ll have a wave in front of the roller and a wave behind it, the small amount of displaced paper has to go somewhere. The waves will be in paper that has already been wound onto the tube so the glue bond on several layers is also affected. When the paper isnt directly under a roller contact point, it will tend to relax and spring back out, thin wall not so much as thick wall tubes. When the relaxed section of paper meets the next roller it has to be compressed again to squeeze underneath it.Using web tension, you dont have the displacement issues as it generates compressive forces at the point where the paper winds onto the tube. A motorised mandrel is better for constant tension, with handcranking you tend to deliver more torque on the downstroke than the upstroke. Uneven tension usually shows up as noticable varations in the wall thickness around the tube and/or out of round tubes once they`re dry. You should be able to calculate the equivalent psi from tension using the paper`s cross sectional area, 24" x 0.008" thick is 0.192 in2, using 10lbs of web tension you`d have 52psi where the paper meets the tube.In contrast, 50lbs of weight on 3 roller contact points of say 24" x 1/8" each, you`d have a total area of 9in2 and 5.55psi on the paper. If the math is correct you`d need 500lbs on the rollers to match 10lbs of tension. A pic is easier, same amount of weight in different locations. A and B. Edited October 2, 2014 by Col
dagabu Posted October 2, 2014 Posted October 2, 2014 To get the paper to wrap automatically spin the mandrel between two bearings at ~250rpm, it will grab the paper and tow it in as quick as getting your tie or hair caught in a drill press. The inertia tightens the paper and the tension across full width of the paper provides the compressive force. The rollers are only really there to guide the first turn around the mandrel.Consider a weighted roller with a single point of contact on the tube, if the roller sinks into the damp paper by a thou, you`ll have a wave in front of the roller and a wave behind it, the small amount of displaced paper has to go somewhere. The waves will be in paper that has already been wound onto the tube so the glue bond on several layers is also affected. When the paper isnt directly under a roller contact point, it will tend to relax and spring back out, thin wall not so much as thick wall tubes. When the relaxed section of paper meets the next roller it has to be compressed again to squeeze underneath it.Using web tension, you dont have the displacement issues as it generates compressive forces at the point where the paper winds onto the tube. A motorised mandrel is better for constant tension, with handcranking you tend to deliver more torque on the downstroke than the upstroke. Uneven tension usually shows up as noticable varations in the wall thickness around the tube and/or out of round tubes once they`re dry. You should be able to calculate the equivalent psi from tension using the paper`s cross sectional area, 24" x 0.008" thick is 0.192 in2, using 10lbs of web tension you`d have 52psi where the paper meets the tube.In contrast, 50lbs of weight on 3 roller contact points of say 24" x 1/8" each, you`d have a total area of 9in2 and 5.55psi on the paper. If the math is correct you`d need 500lbs on the rollers to match 10lbs of tension. Agreed but this is an easy project to start with, all the bells and whistles will come with time. Also, as I learned in machining, a floating gimbal hand wheel eliminates torque on the down stroke, only rotational force can be applied.
Col Posted October 2, 2014 Posted October 2, 2014 Hey Dag,The bells and whistles arent essential but if you have the bits and bobs laying around its worth adding a few. A glue machine is worthwhile for a large roller, a 48" or wider tapofix machine would do the job if you can find one cheap enough.
MrB Posted October 2, 2014 Posted October 2, 2014 A glue machine might be out of my reach, but i might be able to set up a motor to spin the mandrel at 250 or just above, rpm's. setting up a couple of linear bearings, and creating a "feed table" where i can glue the paper, and push it up so the roller grabs it, for a consistent result, should be doable as well. And the motor wouldn't have to cost a lot more then a good handcrank anyway. Those tapofix thingies seam real neat, but considering that the feed paper has to be cut to size, and feed sideways, instead of just straight of the roll, it's going to be "hard" to automate it. And to manually feed the paper through each time, then i might just as well wet it with glue manually. Well, thats my first spontaneous thought. I'll look in to it, when i get that far. The width of the knowledge around here continues to amaze me. Thanks guys.B!
Col Posted October 2, 2014 Posted October 2, 2014 (edited) With a chain driven glue machine you can incorporate two pinch rollers driven by the same chain to automatically feed the glued paper out onto the table. To accomodate different mandrel sizes, use a small lathe chuck with a straight arbor mounted in two bearings at the drive end and 4 roller bearings arranged in an adjustable square to support the other end of the mandrel. basically 2 slotted plates with 2 bearings on each which act as support wheels. The plates swing out of the way (up and down) allowing the tube to be pushed off the mandrel. Quick mandrel changes, saves buying a pair of bearings for every mandrel size and allows for non standard id`s. Edited October 2, 2014 by Col
Bobosan Posted October 2, 2014 Posted October 2, 2014 Depending on the viscosity of the glue that is used, a pipe with small holes drilled in a line parallel to it's length could be used to dispense the glue. Think inline burner of a furnace or gas grill for an idea of what I mean. The glue could be fed using low air pressure. A small linear oscillation of the feed pipe back and forth would produce squiggly lines of glue. Purging the system after use could be an issue. Just throwing some thoughts out there.
stix Posted October 2, 2014 Posted October 2, 2014 . . . Here`s a machine with a similar design to the nept jobbie that does dry paper margins (35 seconds in), It uses 4 rollers for 4mm to 20mm id tubes and costs $20,000 lol Gotta luv that machine! - I watched it at least 6 times, quite hypnotic... um... (note to self: bloody hell, I gotta get out more ) Anyway, I have some information to this "tube rolling quest" that may be worth considering regarding paper grain. I work in the printing industry so have a good knowledge of paper manufacturing. It's late here so I'll try to post details over this weekend. Cheers.
dagabu Posted October 2, 2014 Posted October 2, 2014 While this is all fun and very interesting to watch, there is not a one of us that is going to go into tube making here. It would serve us better to keep working on simple machines that allow a person to make tubes at home using an affordable process. A comment about the glue tube with holes, that is what they are using in the video above along with a wiper to remove excess glue, spread it across the paper and allow greater whetting. The paper appears to be 0.022" chipboard, not kraft. The signs of the thickness are the rigidity of the paper itself, the way it lays on the bed and the thickness of the finished tube.
stix Posted October 2, 2014 Posted October 2, 2014 (edited) While this is all fun and very interesting to watch, there is not a one of us that is going to go into tube making here. It would serve us better to keep working on simple machines that allow a person to make tubes at home using an affordable process. A comment about the glue tube with holes, that is what they are using in the video above along with a wiper to remove excess glue, spread it across the paper and allow greater whetting. The paper appears to be 0.022" chipboard, not kraft. The signs of the thickness are the rigidity of the paper itself, the way it lays on the bed and the thickness of the finished tube. True dagabu, but one may well ask the question (in ref to video) "why doesn't the paper NOT curl when the glue is applied?" Try it yourself, as you may well have - then think again. I have a hypothesis that I'm formulating at the moment and will share for further scrutiny in due course.. Cheers. [EDIT] added "NOT" - makes a big difference to my comment - whoops. Edited October 2, 2014 by stix
mkn Posted October 2, 2014 Author Posted October 2, 2014 Dagabu, is this the kind chip board you are thinking of? thickness would help keep they number of layers down. You have mentioned chipboard before I think, does it roll fairly easily ? http://www.uline.com/BL_1852/Chipboard-Pads
dagabu Posted October 2, 2014 Posted October 2, 2014 True dagabu, but one may well ask the question (in ref to video) "why doesn't the paper NOT curl when the glue is applied?" Try it yourself, as you may well have - then think again. I have a hypothesis that I'm formulating at the moment and will share for further scrutiny in due course.. Cheers. [EDIT] added "NOT" - makes a big difference to my comment - whoops. No idea, mine turns into a potato chip when whetted. Dagabu, is this the kind chip board you are thinking of? thickness would help keep they number of layers down. You have mentioned chipboard before I think, does it roll fairly easily ? http://www.uline.com/BL_1852/Chipboard-Pads I have hundreds of chipboard tubes, they have thick walls and are mushy, not ideal by any means but I can hand ram and fly them in minutes without a support. I like that. I paid around $0.70 US for a 36" tube, 0.75" ID or $0.14 each rocket. It's hard to beat the price... That said, any virgin kraft paper tube with the grain running up and down the tube length will be stronger and lighter. Chipboard is not the answer, it is just an option. Yes, pallet pads are usually free when unloading and stocking, I would not buy them myself.
Bobosan Posted October 2, 2014 Posted October 2, 2014 While this is all fun and very interesting to watch, there is not a one of us that is going to go into tube making here. It would serve us better to keep working on simple machines that allow a person to make tubes at home using an affordable process. A comment about the glue tube with holes, that is what they are using in the video above along with a wiper to remove excess glue, spread it across the paper and allow greater whetting. The paper appears to be 0.022" chipboard, not kraft. The signs of the thickness are the rigidity of the paper itself, the way it lays on the bed and the thickness of the finished tube. You are correct, Dag, this should be something fairly simple for the home builder. Got to quit over thinking the process. On that note, I noticed the rollers you linked to on Ebay were 32-34" long. Do you plan on supporting them midway to prevent flexing? I am looking at rollers in the 12-15" wide range.
stix Posted October 2, 2014 Posted October 2, 2014 Ok, So after 100 posts or so, there are some simple realities that have to be addressed. It's not just the 'glue' that's important, but also the way the paper is used. One is not exclusive to the other, they are intertwined.
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