Tube Roller - 4oz - 1 # and 3 # or more

[mkn]

Gently heat brother

Mikeee I think finding the perfect recipe is going to be a group effort there is just sooo many variations of things you can do. Which is kinda fun. A great challenge:)

 

I was able to gently heat, which seemed to help the remaining Dextrin dissolve, it also changed from a clear to opaque , letting it sit now

 

Hi Matt

One continous sheet from a roll orientates the grain in the wrong direction, the machine direction (MD) is stronger and has less stretch than the cross direction (CD) even with recycled kraft. Tube rolled across the width of the paper will always be stronger and more dimensionally stable. If you wet a piece of paper and it curls, the rolling direction makes a difference.

When it comes to serial winding, commercial tube winding firms have the edge.. forklifts for 8ft+ rolls For any fixed roll wiidth, the paper thickness dictates the wall thickness. If you have a 4ft roll the paper has to be twice as thick to produce the same wall thickness as an 8ft wide roll. In our case this means using more than one sheet butted up to or overlapping the previously rolled sheet. resulting in a gap or bump in the winding.

Calendering multiple sheets together to make a thicker sheet is the better option but its not easy as laminated sheets dont behave the same as a single thick sheet when you roll it. If you roll it wet, the layers can creep. If the glue is appled too thick you`ll have a wave of glue travelling between each layer in front of the mandrel. If you let the calendered paper dry before rolling it, the layers can delaminate if the glue isnt upto par. The top surface of a sheet travels further than the bottom as you roll it.

The way to solve these issues is to keep the individual sheets seperated so the single thick sheet is formed at the mandrel.

 

When it comes to glue, here`s an interesting experiment.

Measure, cut and weigh a piece of paper. (ideally the paper should be dried in a low oven)

Record the weight (dry paper weight)

Apply glue and roll it into a tube, weigh it again (dont cut the ends off the tube)

Record the weight (wet tube weight)

Subtract the dry paper weight from the wet tube weight to get the weight of the wet glue.

Put the tube in the drying box until it doesnt lose any more weight and use that number to figure the weight of the dry glue.

Ideally, the dry solids should equate to at least 50%, higher is better.

 

Thank you Col, My recycled Kraft is .008 thick and 24" wide, so one sheet will work for 4oz , 1.5 sheet for 1# and 2 sheet for 3#

 

 

 

I'll give it a try with some of this new casein glue. This morning it still seemed a bit thin.

[Mumbles]

Have any of you experienced in rolling tubes noticed any diameter differences from different glues? I was partly just curious how much different glues and solid loadings might affect things.

[Col]

It would be hard to be sure of what caused the difference. A layer of a high solids glue may well give the same diametrical result as paper swelling due to the increased water content of a low solids glue. Cellulose fibres apparently swell in diameter10-15% from dry to completely saturated, so once the fibre bonds are broken its unlikely they`ll ever return to their original state (fluffy paper). The starting moisture content of paper is anywhere from 2-12% by all accounts so if you happen to use a paper with 12% it will start out somewhat thicker than 2% and shrink more on drying. The starting moisture content has a bearing on the paper strength so the drier it is the better.

[stix]

Great conversation! I was looking into aluminum tubes for motors but I honestly cant find the thin walled stuff locally for a descent price. After berating the Swish for a while, it became clear that for certain uses, Aluminum might be a choice. What wall thickness were you able to find?

 

Hi dagabu, The aluminium tubes (correct English btw. ) I'm currently using for sugar motors is 19.2 ID (3/4") with 1.5mm wall thickness.

 

Please be aware that i'm using these motors with tight fitting bates grains (core/internal burners) with an average burn time of 1.5 secs. Therefore not a lot of exposure to the casing wall or nozzle surround - I've checked this after testing by cutting them in half for inspection - a 'slight' amount of flame propagation up the wall.

 

I wouldn't, and won't be using these tubes with bp end burners as I believe the tube will likely fail at the nozzle end due to longer burn times, therefore heating and softening of the casing. I don't think the casing will shatter, but nevertheless, the nozzle will likely dislodge and become an un-aimed bullet! (as apposed to a nicely aimed one ).

 

Although, many years back when I was just starting off on my pyromaniacal journey, I used pulverised gun powder rammed into AI tubing with 3mm wall thickness, no nozzle blowouts, but quite heavy and very expensive.

 

I've done a lot of model rocketry + sugar motors (up to 'H' class) over the past few years but now I'm coming back to black powder (maybe I miss the sparks and smell ) and therefore my return to cardboard tubes.

 

Anyway, as someone once said, "It's more about the journey, than the destination" and this hobby for me has provided an amazing amount of twists & turns and learning experiences in areas that I would never have ventured otherwise. It has provided me with a great sense of achievement (If only my day job did )

 

It would be good to be a part of the "coalition of the obsessive" and come up with a reasonably consistent & foolproof method for rolling tubes.

 

So, getting back to the OP's tube roller machine, I really like what you've made and it has great potential. I have a few ideas regarding glues & methods and will post in this thread when I have reviewed some of my old notes.

 

Cheers.

 

Bloody Hell!.. what a long winded post!... Hey, I just had a thought... maybe I should write a book!

Edited September 23, 2014 by stix

[dagabu]

Tut, tut old man, did I say aluminum? Egads, I meant aluminium of course!

 

I was really leaning toward 1mm wall tubing, very light weight, used the same way as modern pryo rockets are. I have no desire to start making Bates grains again, snap rings, turning nozzles etc. Back in the day, there were aluminium lawn chairs everywhere, they made into the trash weekly in the summer, I would use my dads jigsaw to cut them down to straight lengths, I would have a considerable bundle by the fall. A well sanded 1" Oak dowel worked well for a rammer, I would toast the end after shaping it to harden it somewhat.

 

BP was all mortar and pestle made, only the finest dusting flour, stump killer and Kingsford briquettes were used! Many lawn fires happened after that, nozzles, clays etc. were tried and discarded and that is what I love, 35 years later and I still dont have any real answers, just more questions. What a great hobby!

[mkn]

Update on progress:


I have tested 3 tubes all 1/2 " diameter or 4 oz. all with same .008 " recycled kraft. all a 1" piece of tube filled with bentonite and used flat rammer. My gauge is the built according to Whichibuggy, and I am using that conversion chart, and 2.3 as the hydraulic factor.


hardest part of testing is keeping track of the needle on the gauge , and knowing when the tube begins to split. The Elmer's split was soft and more difficult to determine, the Casein tubes split hard and definitive.



Tube 1- Elmer's 70 / 30 mix - 500 on gauge - 5800psi

( only waxed tube test, rolled against the grain or straight off the roll ) was the split happening before I noticed ? possibly.

Tube 2- Casein, ( bad mix ) - 450 on gauge - 5,200psi

with a dismal adhesion test, figured I must have messed up the glue mixture, but I rolled one anyway. ( not waxed - rolled against the grain or straight off the roll)

Tube 3 - Casein ,Borax, Dextrin ( gently heated) 475 on gauge - 5,500psi ( not waxed - **** rolled with the grain or 90 degrees to the roll ****)

This glue had a good adhesion test, although it still seems a bit thin and lacking a good initial tack compared to Elmer's.



I have not tested the solids percentage left from the dried glue as Col described.



Results: Well, my casein glue is no where near as strong as it could be compared to Jessoman, Tube strength is not bad compared to Ned's tests on 3/4 " - 1# tubes with 1/8" wall high quality tubes ( NEPT ?)

rolling with the grain or 90 degrees to machine roll helps with easier removal off mandrel and also appears to have stopped the slight curve found when rolling against the grain or straight off the machine roll.



I am going to try and thicken the casein glue with more dextrin, and maybe the next batch use less initial water to dissolve the casein.

Wish I had some good Virgin Kraft to roll......

Matt

[schroedinger]

Mkn did you press or ram your rockets?

[Col]

Nice tests Matt

The results with virgin kraft should show a similar trend between glues, the burst pressures will be higher in all cases with the better quality paper. Pva is fairly elastic so the yield point is wider than the more brittle casein. Pva weakens with heat and it seems to transmit heat better than other glues. in the interests of science i put my finger in a pva glued tube and clamped the wife`s hair straighteners around it, it got way too hot pretty quick and the tube lost a lot of its structural strength. The same test with a silicate/dextrin/casien glued tube, no burnt finger and no loss of tube strength.

If you want a really brittle tube, try one glued with neat sodium silicate. They give way very suddenly, usually with a sharp crack or bang and leave a bullet hard, knife like edge

If we all use Ned`s testing method, (2" section of tube and 20g of bentonite), it should make the results easier to compare.

[dagabu]

Update on progress:

 

 

I have tested 3 tubes all 1/2 " diameter or 4 oz. all with same .008 " recycled kraft. all a 1" piece of tube filled with bentonite and used flat rammer. My gauge is the built according to Whichibuggy, and I am using that conversion chart, and 2.3 as the hydraulic factor.

 

 

hardest part of testing is keeping track of the needle on the gauge , and knowing when the tube begins to split. The Elmer's split was soft and more difficult to determine, the Casein tubes split hard and definitive.

 

 

 

Tube 1- Elmer's 70 / 30 mix - 500 on gauge - 5800psi

 

( only waxed tube test, rolled against the grain or straight off the roll ) was the split happening before I noticed ? possibly.

 

Tube 2- Casein, ( bad mix ) - 450 on gauge - 5,200psi

 

with a dismal adhesion test, figured I must have messed up the glue mixture, but I rolled one anyway. ( not waxed - rolled against the grain or straight off the roll)

 

Tube 3 - Casein ,Borax, Dextrin ( gently heated) 475 on gauge - 5,500psi ( not waxed - **** rolled with the grain or 90 degrees to the roll ****)

 

This glue had a good adhesion test, although it still seems a bit thin and lacking a good initial tack compared to Elmer's.

 

 

 

I have not tested the solids percentage left from the dried glue as Col described.

 

 

 

Results: Well, my casein glue is no where near as strong as it could be compared to Jessoman, Tube strength is not bad compared to Ned's tests on 3/4 " - 1# tubes with 1/8" wall high quality tubes ( NEPT ?)

 

rolling with the grain or 90 degrees to machine roll helps with easier removal off mandrel and also appears to have stopped the slight curve found when rolling against the grain or straight off the machine roll.

 

 

 

I am going to try and thicken the casein glue with more dextrin, and maybe the next batch use less initial water to dissolve the casein.

 

Wish I had some good Virgin Kraft to roll......

 

Matt

 

IMHO, that is a good trait, when tightening the tubes after rolling them, the slip allows the spaces and pockets to be rolled out. PVA glue can slip but the high initial tack can cause wrinkles and pockets when tightening. YMMV...

[mkn]

Mkn did you press or ram your rockets?

 

Press for this test, but in motor building I use both, generally ram BP, and press the whistle

 

Nice tests Matt

The results with virgin kraft should show a similar trend between glues, the burst pressures will be higher in all cases with the better quality paper. Pva is fairly elastic so the yield point is wider than the more brittle casein. Pva weakens with heat and it seems to transmit heat better than other glues. in the interests of science i put my finger in a pva glued tube and clamped the wife`s hair straighteners around it, it got way too hot pretty quick and the tube lost a lot of its structural strength. The same test with a silicate/dextrin/casien glued tube, no burnt finger and no loss of tube strength.

If you want a really brittle tube, try one glued with neat sodium silicate. They give way very suddenly, usually with a sharp crack or bang and leave a bullet hard, knife like edge

If we all use Ned`s testing method, (2" section of tube and 20g of bentonite), it should make the results easier to compare.

 

I laughed out loud when I read the finger in the tube and curling iron ! That sounds like what I would do, very practical and immediate good results!

 

Yes, That is good for this glue development we should all do the 2" segment and 20g clay. I wonder if there is a difference in 1/2" vs 3/4" when testing. I will check some 3/4, I have PVA only now, but will roll up some casein ones.

 

Have you ever tested the pressure difference between recycled and virgin Kraft with the same batch of glue?

 

 

IMHO, that is a good trait, when tightening the tubes after rolling them, the slip allows the spaces and pockets to be rolled out. PVA glue can slip but the high initial tack can cause wrinkles and pockets when tightening. YMMV...

 

 

That is great to know, I thought that my two batches were not great because they lacked that initial tack, and hence my first batch casein tube test similar to my second batch, I guess I should not have tossed out the first batch.

 

The casein ones do come off the mandrel feeling almost dry and just slightly moist to the touch.

 

 

Matt

[mkn]

_{Here is the Casein recipe that I used for the second batch:}

 

 

_{1 envelope dry skim ( makes1 qt of milk)}

 

_{mix in with warm tap water ( this probably should be distilled water) to make 1 qt.}

 

_{add 3/4 cup white vinegar, stir briefly, curds are very quick , a few minutes is all.}

 

_{drain thru a filter or tight weave ( 40 mesh)}

 

_{Rinse well to remove vinegar, drain again. to drip dry}

 

_{This should yield apx 145g of moist casein ( calculates apx 41% dry casein)}

 

_{Then dissolve 6 g Borax in 100 g ( 1/2 cup) Hot Tap water ( again probably should be distilled)}

 

_{Add to Casein curds and mix, set for 4-6 hours to fully dissolve casein into solution}

 

_{Add 1 tsp baking soda, mix to ensure acid ( vinegar ) is neutralized.}

 

_{dissolve 1 tbs dextrin in two tbs water.}

 

_{mix into casein solution, difficult to dissolve and mix.}

 

_{gently warm while mixing till wisps of steam appear, remove from heat.}

 

_{let stand overnight.}

 

_{Mine did not have a film on the surface in the morning to remove as I think Jessoman had mentioned.}

 

_{This yields a fairly thin glue, I think if anything cut back on the water added.}

 

 

 

 

_{Anyone that has worked Casein have tips or suggestions for this?}

 

 

_{Thanks Matt}

[schroedinger]

Could you also do a test on your roller with dextrine and cmc?

[mkn]

I would , but I don't have any CMC.

 

Doing a solids test right now on some 3/4" 1# tubes.

[schroedinger]

Ok isn't wallpaper paste cmc where you live?

[Col]

Have you ever tested the pressure difference between recycled and virgin Kraft with the same batch of glue?

 

Only subjective testing, when i ran out of virgin kraft i used some imitation stuff of the same weight to roll insert tubes. The performance was pitiful compared to the virgin kraft with identical spec.

[mkn]

A quick search shows CMC generally not used in US wallpaper paste, The wallpaper paste I have here is corn starch, dextrin, sodium nitrate and starch. I'll check next time I'm at the hardware store.

[dagabu]

From COL in 2013:

"a blend of dextrin,casein and sodium silicate, 62.5% dry solids with a viscosity somewhere between SAE 40 motor oil and castor oil."

 

AdmarialDonSnyder in 2011:

"Classic sources such as Shimizu present some options not commonly seen in amateur repertoires e.g. Casein,Casein adhesive (Casein 77%; Slaked lime(Calcium hydroxide) 16; Sodium carbonate 7) or waterglass based glue."

[Col]

Spent a couple of hours knocking up a simple glue from homemade dextrin and casein for testing. Casein in powdered form is pricey stuff here, skimmed milk near its sell by date is a cheap option for thrifty pyro`s. It might even be worth checking the skip behind the shop when it closes

[Maserface]

Waterglass, now there is an idea! Maybe a casein/borax/waterglass/zinc oxide/ dextrin glue??

[mkn]

Test results for 3/4" ( 1#) Tubes - Recyled Kraft rolled peppendicular to machine roll Casein glue posted above on the 25th.

 

 

2" piece with bentonie clay

 

solids test on Casein glue - glue left 7.6 g of solids on tube = 22% 1/2 of recommendations.

 

 

 

Control sample of NEPT tube - was able to fit 15g of bentonite - 850 on gauge = 4,400 psi ? not sure why this this low reading, tubes were ordered from Jim around March this year.

 

my tube - wall was only .10 not .12 ( second sheet needs to be longer to accommodate the growing diameter of tube ) 600 on gauge = 3,100 psi not bad considering the thinner wall and glue solids at 22% comparing to the control sample.

 

that batch of glue is finished now so I can't repeat the test with a thicker wall. Next batch of glue will be thicker........

 

Matt

[Col]

Did you oven dry out the paper before rolling? I checked mine yesterday and the moisture content is around 11%. The paper moisture will throw out the solids calculations as you wont know how much water evaporated from the paper and how much from the glue. 22% is a bit on the low side, was it watery? The small test batch i made up yesterday came out at 37% solids and that had the consistancy/viscosity of toffee sauce/golden syrup, didnt smell anything like as appetizing though.

 

To get a full set of data, note the paper area before rolling the tube under test. Use the wet tube weight to figure out the average glue application weight. The toffee sauce went on at around 40gsm. You can use the glue application weight along with the glue volume vs weight (eg; 1.42g/ml) to work out the average glue thickness on the paper, In theory, mine should have been around 28 microns (*cigarette paper thickness) but it went on with a brush so its not very likely.

 

Went back over the notes as the 37% didnt seem right. must have had a senior moment, or cant add up for toffee sauce.

I worked out the solids percentage using the glue water loss weight, doh!

Here`s the numbers:

Wet tube:15.2g, comprising 4.6g glue, 1.14g of paper moisture and 9.46g of dry paper.

Final bone dry tube weight was12.3g, minus dry paper weight (9.46g), minus paper moisture (1.14g)

15.2g minus 12.3g = 2.9g of total water evaporated.

1.14g from the paper and the other 1.76g from the glue.

Glue weight applied to the paper was 4.6g, minus the 1.76g water loss, leaves 2.84g which is the solids

Dry solids: 62%

 

Here`s an idea of the glue`s viscosity, it was a tad on the cold side which made it slightly thicker. At room temp (70F+) it pours off the stick at a nice steady rate. just about perfect for coating a glue roller.

http://youtu.be/lcTf3IlJV8w

Edited September 28, 2014 by Col

[mkn]

Yes, oven dried sample of the paper 71.5g starting 66.4 g dried = 5.1g about 7% paper moisture ( it was interesting how quickly it pickup moisture again from atmosphere, with in some short period of moments it had gained back 1g )

 

Tube with glue 105.0g - 5.1g = 99.9g - 66.4g = 33.5g glue

 

glued tube dry is 74g - 66.4g = 7.6g solids = 22.6% solids

 

 

The second tube I rolled took 35.3 grams of glue, so gluing method seems consistent

 

 

I am pleased with the progress of this recycled paper so far , the 4oz tubes are right in there for psi

 

these 1# seem low, but the control tube was low , and my tube wall was not the full .12" -- need to look into the control tube, it did not snap open like these casein tubes.

[mkn]

From COL in 2013:

"a blend of dextrin,casein and sodium silicate, 62.5% dry solids with a viscosity somewhere between SAE 40 motor oil and castor oil."

 

AdmarialDonSnyder in 2011:

"Classic sources such as Shimizu present some options not commonly seen in amateur repertoires e.g. Casein,Casein adhesive (Casein 77%; Slaked lime(Calcium hydroxide) 16; Sodium carbonate 7) or waterglass based glue."

 

It seems I am missing ingredients from both of these , sodium silicate, as well as Slaked Lime........

 

Waterglass, now there is an idea! Maybe a casein/borax/waterglass/zinc oxide/ dextrin glue??

 

Zinc oxide ? I don't think I have seen that listed before ?

[Col]

Zinc acts a setting accelerator, i dont bother as the glue sets fast enough already but you only need 0.5-1%.

[mkn]

Did you oven dry out the paper before rolling? I checked mine yesterday and the moisture content is around 11%. The paper moisture will throw out the solids calculations as you wont know how much water evaporated from the paper and how much from the glue. 22% is a bit on the low side, was it watery? The small test batch i made up yesterday came out at 37% solids and that had the consistancy/viscosity of toffee sauce/golden syrup, didnt smell anything like as appetizing though.

 

To get a full set of data, note the paper area before rolling the tube under test. Use the wet tube weight to figure out the average glue application weight. The toffee sauce went on at around 40gsm. You can use the glue application weight along with the glue volume vs weight (eg; 1.42g/ml) to work out the average glue thickness on the paper, In theory, mine should have been around 28 microns (*cigarette paper thickness) but it went on with a brush so its not very likely.

 

Went back over the notes as the 37% didnt seem right. must have had a senior moment, or cant add up for toffee sauce.

I worked out the solids percentage using the glue water loss weight, doh!

Here`s the numbers:

Wet tube:15.2g, comprising 4.6g glue, 1.14g of paper moisture and 9.46g of dry paper.

Final bone dry tube weight was12.3g, minus dry paper weight (9.46g), minus paper moisture (1.14g)

15.2g minus 12.3g = 2.9g of total water evaporated.

1.14g from the paper and the other 1.76g from the glue.

Glue weight applied to the paper was 4.6g, minus the 1.76g water loss, leaves 2.84g which is the solids

Dry solids: 62%

 

Here`s an idea of the glue`s viscosity, it was a tad on the cold side which made it slightly thicker. At room temp (70F+) it pours off the stick at a nice steady rate. just about perfect for coating a glue roller.

http://youtu.be/lcTf3IlJV8w

 

Much thicker than my batch above post #61

 

I just mixed another batch cutting my water to 50 g , see how this compares to your video. Then try a few tubes for 1# and pressure test,

 

Col - do you heat your mixture at all after mixing?