Tube Roller - 4oz - 1 # and 3 # or more

[Maserface]

Well one supplier I talked to quoted me 5/pound on a full pallet of casein, still steep for my taste-

 

Have you considered a mix of borax, casein, and wheat or rice starch? Might be able to find an economical mix. Ideally I would want to find a dry mix that could be made with tepid water and used.

[a_bab]

I personally think that the glue itself plays a great role in the tube strength.

One can "dry roll" a tube and do a burst test: this will be the starting point to choose the paper.

Once the best paper is found, we have the glue issue.

 

Let's see what would be the ideal glue:

-good viscosity

-must not wet the paper (so it won't crease)

-must not reduce volume on drying (PVA sucks at this)

-once dry, it should be hard and not very elastic (again, PVA tends is elastic).

 

Possible candidates:

PVA: elastic, reduces the volume leaving gaps

Dextrin: bad workability, hygroscopic

SRGS: if made properly as by Shimizu, I guess it would work well. Once cooked, it has the consistency of nails.
Yet, it gave bad results for our best tube-winder here (I guess Col).

 

 

Have you ever seen what a gelatin sheet feels like in the hands? If you try to break it, you will notice you can bend it but it will eventually snap. It is also quite hard.

Incidently, (some of the) gummed paper uses gelatin for glue. After a dialog with a gummed paper producer I found out they use gelatin because it doesn not wet the paper. The glue is a gel and the paper can't steal it's water. It will simply solidify, then the paper can be rolled up with the dry glue.
Biodegradable? You bet ! Your tubes will rot and mould in no time.

 

The glue must add strength to the paper. That's why something like a resin will make incredibly strong tubes (urethane, epoxy) since the solid form of these is a hard plastic. Extrapolating, a PE covered paper as in the skylighter tutorial will give elastic tubes, where the tube bursting point is mostly defined by the paper. But neither of these are biodegradable. And I hate plastic.

Edited September 19, 2014 by a_bab

[dagabu]

Well one supplier I talked to quoted me 5/pound on a full pallet of casein, still steep for my taste-

 

Have you considered a mix of borax, casein, and wheat or rice starch? Might be able to find an economical mix. Ideally I would want to find a dry mix that could be made with tepid water and used.

Maser,

 

Was that $5.00 a pound? A pallet size should run around $.70-.75 a pound max plus shipping. I can help you with leads if you wish.

[dagabu]

I personally think that the glue itself plays a great role in the tube strength.

One can "dry roll" a tube and do a burst test: this will be the starting point to choose the paper.

Once the best paper is found, we have the glue issue.

 

Let's see what would be the ideal glue:

-good viscosity

-must not wet the paper (so it won't crease)

-must not reduce volume on drying (PVA sucks at this)

-once dry, it should be hard and not very elastic (again, PVA tends is elastic).

 

Possible candidates:

PVA: elastic, reduces the volume leaving gaps

Dextrin: bad workability, hygroscopic

SRGS: if made properly as by Shimizu, I guess it would work well. Once cooked, it has the consistency of nails.

Yet, it gave bad results for our best tube-winder here (I guess Col).

 

 

Have you ever seen what a gelatin sheet feels like in the hands? If you try to break it, you will notice you can bend it but it will eventually snap. It is also quite hard.

Incidently, (some of the) gummed paper uses gelatin for glue. After a dialog with a gummed paper producer I found out they use gelatin because it doesn not wet the paper. The glue is a gel and the paper can't steal it's water. It will simply solidify, then the paper can be rolled up with the dry glue.

Biodegradable? You bet ! Your tubes will rot and mould in no time.

 

The glue must add strength to the paper. That's why something like a resin will make incredibly strong tubes (urethane, epoxy) since the solid form of these is a hard plastic. Extrapolating, a PE covered paper as in the skylighter tutorial will give elastic tubes, where the tube bursting point is mostly defined by the paper. But neither of these are biodegradable. And I hate plastic.

 

Sounds like you are speaking of animal gelatin. If so, you essentially have a lesser form of hide glue, the gelatin is only part of the adhesive. Keep in mind that literally ANY lick-n-stick glue will have poor water resistance, even gelatins will re-hydrate.

 

Not all resins are petrochemical based, pine or tree resin is not a 'plastic' and would be a good candidate for an adhesive in some applications.

[schroedinger]

Why has dextrin a bad workability?

[dagabu]

I dont think it does and neither did NEPT, they used tons of the stuff along with casein for their glue.

[a_bab]

Dextrin is very sticky. If you ever try to roll up a tube using it you'll know what I mean. It will work for the industry though.

 

There are literally hundreds of dextrin types and glues based on dextrin. It would be difficult to find out the exact type NEPT used, but it certainly must have been a dextrin based glue.

 

Basically if paper is glued, it is likely that some dextrin-based glue did it: water activated envelopes, stamps, gummed paper, boxes, spiral tubes etc.

For the paper industry these glues are sold by barrels, both as powders or liquid form.

[schroedinger]

I nearly always use dextrin glue, and actually like the fact that it is quite sticky.

 

The gummed paper type i got is made with potato starch, not dextrine. To bad that gum arabic is so expensiv, it would be perfect.

[Col]

Hi Guys,

The best glue for the job is a high solids formula which kinda rules out PVA and wheat starch. I find silicates, dextrins and caseins work the best but can be a pain to work with. You need additives with high solids glue to modify the open time and initial tack. A glue applicator is essential to get a thin, uniform coating on the paper, especially when the paper is a few feet wide

The glue applicator gives you the option of making multi-ply paper like NEPT, i personally believe the reason they do it that way is their machines are limited to a minimum paper thickness and its cheaper to laminate multiple sheets than have 300-550gsm virgin kraft specially made. If thats the case, they got lucky when they found it produced a stronger tube than serial winding multiple sheets.

[mkn]

I was able to test a 4oz tube with the Elmers glue ( 70/30) 1/8 " + wall - just over 6,000 psi before it split ( recycled Kraft) , half of What Jessoman had.

I tried to make casein glue, the casein came out fine from skim milk powder, but I am have trouble converting it to good glue. First error I belive is I use both baking soda and Borax, ratios from separate receipies , but I put them in one mixture, probably should have used one or the other. - test strips of glued paper are dismal.

2nd batch of casein glue, only used the Borax seems a bit thin. test strips seem better but still lacking great adhesion. I just added some dextrin to it, trying to thicken it, hard to mix in, waiting for it to fully dissolve.

The difficulty seems to be in that the casein takes quite some time to fully dissolve into the glue, 4 hours or more, at the same time it is moist from the extraction process and the recipes are calibrated on casein powder.


Any help out there?

also noticed in the tubes I rolled with the first marginal batch,were much harder to remove from the mandrel, compared to the Elmer's 70 - 30.
interestingly, although it was a dismal adhestion test, the tube seemed comparable to the Elmer's tubes in stiffness, have not pressure tested them.

Matt

Edited September 22, 2014 by mkn

[mkn]

Hi Guys,

The best glue for the job is a high solids formula which kinda rules out PVA and wheat starch. I find silicates, dextrins and caseins work the best but can be a pain to work with. You need additives with high solids glue to modify the open time and initial tack. A glue applicator is essential to get a thin, uniform coating on the paper, especially when the paper is a few feet wide

The glue applicator gives you the option of making multi-ply paper like NEPT, i personally believe the reason they do it that way is their machines are limited to a minimum paper thickness and its cheaper to laminate multiple sheets than have 300-550gsm virgin kraft specially made. If thats the case, they got lucky when they found it produced a stronger tube than serial winding multiple sheets.

Hi Col,

 

by serial winding, do you mean one continuous sheet coming from the roll? that multiple sheets pre glued on top of each other are better?

 

Matt

[mkn]

I would absolutely give the no fat powder a go, I just found out the local health food shop has it cheap.

Also, on another note. The extras you put in the casein glue make it much more economical.

I just got some borax

 

Here's a vid of one of my tubes. Got it to just over 12,000 psi.

http://youtu.be/eQxtxXqsh7g

It didn't pop either I just didn't have enough room left on the gauge to keep going

Hey Jessoman,

 

Any tips on your glue recipe?

That is a phenomenal tube test !!!

 

Virgin Kraft?

 

Matt

[mikeee]

If he comes up with a usable recipe for solid tubes, he should bottle it and sell it.

Everyone will want to know the recipe if he finds a good compound.

 

Mikeee

 

http://mikeee12345.wix.com/case-formers

[jessoman]

Sorry Matt and others I have been extremely busy with work and I will be for the next 2 weeks.

I absolutely believe the weight of my paper is a reason why I get good results. I have some really top notch kraft.

 

It is brilliant to see Col back, he's a wealth of knowledge and a great bloke! Just have to say that.

 

What Col means by layers of paper:

(Excuse metrics?)Say you have a 900mm roll of paper. Cut- off the roll a piece the length of the tube you want. So cut 190mm or 7.5". Continue to cut an extra couple, depending on the thickness you want. This is done as the grain direction is that way. For strength.

So you next want to fashion them by calendar method. So lay all sheets out glue them good, leave a strip glue free for the bit that wraps around the mandrel. Then place the next piece of paper where the mandrel would start. Then the next piece of paper a little bit further down the line.

I only use 2 sheets because I only need that. I should try a 3rd but 2 makes life a lot easier. I can get things tight and straight.

Also. Keep playing with glues. This is key. The references I made are good guidelines. I think the properties we need are all in this thread so looking for glues and cross references glues is the way to go. When to add your acids and bases and doing everything bit by bit is important too. Especially with borax where it augments molecular volume.

The first casein glue I made and had great results. Was with no fat mill. But separating the curds, quick wash and then straight to bicarbonate (not too much!) froth it all up with a bit of water and heat.

This, although unrefined produces a straight glue.

Let it site overnight with the leftover mixture and take the skin off the top. Make sure no further thinning is done after the heating process. Got to get a feel for it because it changes properties.

Lemme know how you go!

[mkn]

Ah, heating after mixing in the baking soda or borax, did not do that.

 

off to the stove......

[jessoman]

Gently heat brother

Mikeee I think finding the perfect recipe is going to be a group effort there is just sooo many variations of things you can do. Which is kinda fun. A great challenge:)

[mkn]

If he comes up with a usable recipe for solid tubes, he should bottle it and sell it.

Everyone will want to know the recipe if he finds a good compound.

 

Mikeee

 

http://mikeee12345.wix.com/case-formers

 

 

I wonder what the shipping will be from AU......

[mikeee]

mkn,

 

Not too many options with the loss of NEPT tubes for the rocketeers out there.

I know I will be rolling tubes within a month or two if another source is not found.

A good glue is the secret to a hard solid tube.

I might try taking a substandard cardboard tube and soaking them in a resin to increase the strength.

 

Mikeee

 

http://mikeee12345.w...om/case-formers

[jessoman]

 

 

I wonder what the shipping will be from AU......

Haha I tell you what if I find out that 'golden' glue I will be doing a fancy little tutorial so everyone can do it!

 

Why not mikeee, however resin could make it brittle as the paper tube compresses a bit all the time. That compression will lead to all sorts of issues with the structure of resin. Everything is worth a try though!

Edited September 22, 2014 by jessoman

[mikeee]

Jessoman,

 

Some of the newer resins are designed to have a certain amount of flex in the product, so it is not quire so brittle.

I would rather use a cardboard tube with a bio-degradable glue.

If we start leaving a lot of materials behind people will start complaining about the debris when it does not go away over time.

[schroedinger]

Maybe you US guys can get one of your big suppliers to import eger tubes?

[Col]

Hi Col,

 

by serial winding, do you mean one continuous sheet coming from the roll? that multiple sheets pre glued on top of each other are better?

 

Matt

Hi Matt

One continous sheet from a roll orientates the grain in the wrong direction, the machine direction (MD) is stronger and has less stretch than the cross direction (CD) even with recycled kraft. Tube rolled across the width of the paper will always be stronger and more dimensionally stable. If you wet a piece of paper and it curls, the rolling direction makes a difference.

When it comes to serial winding, commercial tube winding firms have the edge.. forklifts for 8ft+ rolls For any fixed roll wiidth, the paper thickness dictates the wall thickness. If you have a 4ft roll the paper has to be twice as thick to produce the same wall thickness as an 8ft wide roll. In our case this means using more than one sheet butted up to or overlapping the previously rolled sheet. resulting in a gap or bump in the winding.

Calendering multiple sheets together to make a thicker sheet is the better option but its not easy as laminated sheets dont behave the same as a single thick sheet when you roll it. If you roll it wet, the layers can creep. If the glue is appled too thick you`ll have a wave of glue travelling between each layer in front of the mandrel. If you let the calendered paper dry before rolling it, the layers can delaminate if the glue isnt upto par. The top surface of a sheet travels further than the bottom as you roll it.

The way to solve these issues is to keep the individual sheets seperated so the single thick sheet is formed at the mandrel.

 

When it comes to glue, here`s an interesting experiment.

Measure, cut and weigh a piece of paper. (ideally the paper should be dried in a low oven)

Record the weight (dry paper weight)

Apply glue and roll it into a tube, weigh it again (dont cut the ends off the tube)

Record the weight (wet tube weight)

Subtract the dry paper weight from the wet tube weight to get the weight of the wet glue.

Put the tube in the drying box until it doesnt lose any more weight and use that number to figure the weight of the dry glue.

Ideally, the dry solids should equate to at least 50%, higher is better.

Edited September 22, 2014 by Col

[stix]

I've been watching this post with interest and would like to add my 5 Aussie cents worth. (approx. $0.04 US atm )

 

I went down this path a couple of years back - ie. rolling my own convolute tubes as they are non-existent here and ridiculously over-priced to import from the US.

 

One method I used was sodium silicate solution (water glass) - I've read somewhere on these forums not use use it as it might shatter. Certainly not my experience. The tube I have in front of me now is approx. 19mm ID (3/4 inch) 90mm long with a 3mm wall thickness. I can just squeeze it with some distortion with both my thumbs and forefingers - not bad and not brittle.

 

The other method was rolling paper with an interleave of PPE (garbage bags) and heating in the oven - surprisingly very strong, but never tested in a motor.

 

The upshot for me was a lot of work, so I ended up using Al tubing as it allowed me to achieve my results - ie. testing sugar fuel, nozzle design and motor performance using a thrust meter. I'm satisfied with the data I measured.

 

I would rather NOT use aluminum tubing because of the safety factor, so good cardboard tubes have always been the 'holy grail' and this thread has stirred me into action to pull out my old notes and re-visit my previous experiments with a view to joining the cause.

 

Cheers.

[dagabu]

Great conversation! I was looking into aluminum tubes for motors but I honestly cant find the thin walled stuff locally for a descent price. After berating the Swish for a while, it became clear that for certain uses, Aluminum might be a choice. What wall thickness were you able to find?

[Maserface]

http://books.google.com/books?id=sEBAAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA1647&lpg=PA1647&dq=Fenners+twentieth+century+formulary&source=bl&ots=E0ubSmt6JY&sig=qdOX2VnRpJTQZXlauhUVOrDf52I&hl=en&sa=X&ei=oiwbVP3zKIabyAT4pYKYBw&ved=0CFwQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=Casein&f=false

 

that book has some great info on different mucilages. Too bad I cant seem to find anywhere selling a hard copy.