mkn Posted September 17, 2014 Posted September 17, 2014 Hi all, I posted a few pics of the BASIC tube roller I put together. With appropriate mandrels, I have rolled sizes up to 1" Still waiting for them to fully dry, before an actual launch test. I can say, these look better than my hand rolled, more consistent quality tube to tube, and are already quite firm to hard with one day of drying. I have had good hand rolled tubes for BP and whistle, just a much lower percentage of acceptable tubes when hand rolled. If the tubes can hold their own under fire, I plan to post a video of it in operation to help others with the process. It was quite easy to assemble, not much of a learning curve to using, and the mandrels ( aluminum or SS rods) and conveyer rollers are available from McMaster Carr. .There are descriptions on the pics in my album link below, give me a shout with any questions. http://www.amateurpyro.com/forums/gallery/album/289-tube-roller/ tubes are great, drying with a slight / tiny curve on some. I don't think it will be an issue once they are cut to length.You can see not much run out on the ends, some are quite aligned. Matt 2
Bobosan Posted September 17, 2014 Posted September 17, 2014 Nice work there, Matt. What length are the rollers?
mkn Posted September 17, 2014 Author Posted September 17, 2014 (edited) Thanks ! Here is a a copy of the PO: from McMaster Carr 2277T281.9" Diameter Galvanized Steel Conveyor Roller, General Purpose, for 26" Between Frame WidthEach 9434T16Steel One-Hole Clamp, for 7/16" OD, 1/8" Pipe/Rigid Conduit Size, Packs of 501 8974K13Multipurpose 6061 Aluminum Rod, 1" Diameter, 3' Length1Each Edited September 17, 2014 by mkn
MWJ Posted September 17, 2014 Posted September 17, 2014 Great! Thanks! I did see your post and I clicked on "Follow Post" so I can keep up with you on this.
jessoman Posted September 17, 2014 Posted September 17, 2014 (edited) Great work! Will be interesting to see some pressure tests. What length are the finished tubes? I wish I made my roller longer and with a mandrel press. Also, how do is the mandrel held in place and allowed to spin freely, concentric , then removed? You might want to try cutting the tubes beforehand to prevent the banana'ing. Drying vertical has been said to help also (though I am not sure of this). Edited September 17, 2014 by jessoman
mkn Posted September 17, 2014 Author Posted September 17, 2014 Hi Jessoman,the tubes are 24". I do cut the hand rolled to length before drying, but these are so tight on the mandrel I want to get them off before they stick. I have tried to lube the mandrel with glue, and I loose friction and can not wind the paper under pressure. Currently still experimenting with paper tension and mandrel - glue or no glue I am thinking the commercial rolled must have very little moisture content in the glue from the videos I have seen and that way they don't curl with drying. Also, how do is the mandrel held in place and allowed to spin freely, concentric , then removed? in the pic of the open rollers, a board on the left is the guide for the mandrel, then turn with the vice grips ( I may drill a hole and add a shaped bolt for a handle)
jessoman Posted September 17, 2014 Posted September 17, 2014 Thanks mkn, what exactly is the guide for the mandrel? Could I ask a close up of it. Can't quiet make it out. It produces much longer tubes then I expected, that's what makes things worth-while. Are you rolling with the grain? Using multiple sheets of paper to achieve wall thickness? or rolling straight off the kraft roll, so to speak? As for tension on the paper while rolling (as I dont have a mandrel press) I have a small weight made of bulldog clips with weight on them which hangs over the table to ensure everything is as tight as can be. I too am very interested in the different types of glue. A high solids no-shrink glue is definitely what you need. I'm experimenting with different glues all the time. At the moment I have been playing with casein glues.Still tweaking though... You may find this interesting https://play.google.com/books/reader2?id=ouYkAgAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&output=reader&hl=en&pg=GBS.PT1
mkn Posted September 17, 2014 Author Posted September 17, 2014 These are rolled with recycled kraft, no grain .008 thick. ( 65 or 75 lbs I don't remember) rolled straight from the Kraft roll , I was told that recycled is known for slight curing when drying. Once cut to length, the variance will not be an issue. Maybe next roll I will pay the higher price for virgin ( about 3x $) or not........if they send the rockets , that's what I'm after mandrel guide: in the third pic from the left up top, the frame is opened up. The black roll is the mandrel with vinyl tape electrical tape. In front of that is the two bottom rollers, to the left of them is a 4" piece of wood sticking up, I simply push the mandrel over to that guide, start the paper winding close the frame, add the bag of lead shot and roll. The mandrel stays put as I roll. The adhesives book is a great find, what are you using for the glue mix ratio? 100 casein to 150 water?
jessoman Posted September 17, 2014 Posted September 17, 2014 (edited) Ahh I see now, I finally stared at it long enough to see what I was missing! :-) I thought the mandrel was fixed to the top press part. I actually think I will try applying the force to the mandrel by having rollers atop on the pressing frame. I think two bottom rollers are enough. I also have a hard time getting conveyer rollers where I am. I reallyyy recommend the casein. It's a bit more then casein/water. You need a acid then a buffer.Etc.There are a few recipes on the net how to make it from no fat milk. Follow them, would like to see how you go with your set up. Highly recommend upgrading the paper and the extra cutting work. You will appreciate the difference it makes on the gauge. Perhaps you could overcome your curing issue with sizing the paper first... Yet another step though Edited September 17, 2014 by jessoman
dagabu Posted September 17, 2014 Posted September 17, 2014 (edited) You could size the paper with your glue first and let it dry then use a second but very thin coating and roll it up, that is what a lot of us suspect NEPT did with their tubes. One thing to consider for removing a tube from a mandrel is to PUSH the tube off the mandrel and not pull it off. Using a plastic block with handles and a hole .005" larger than the mandrel, fix the mandrel in a vice or similar and draw the ejector toward you pushing (pulling towards you) the tube off the mandrel. ALL of the commercial machines use an ejector of some sort that pushes the tubes off. Steve LaDuke said that when he visited NEPT, the fresh rolled tubes were not wet to the touch, just ever so slightly damp. A brush kissed the paper and applied a sparse layer of thin adhesive (casein and dextrin) to the surface with no time to whet the paper and rolled up. Edited September 17, 2014 by dagabu
jessoman Posted September 17, 2014 Posted September 17, 2014 Who told you about the casein dag? Just out of curiosity would love to see where it is mentioned to further edumacate myself. Totally agree with the 'ejector method' there does is a technique for correct removal if doing it by hand. Not sure if PVA would be very good for sizing. Well it may work... But casein would be where I would be betting Here is another paper for the glue sniffers :http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/sectors/chemicals/files/docs_studies/annex_use_other_application_en.pdf
mkn Posted September 17, 2014 Author Posted September 17, 2014 Yes that ejector method works well, and about the only way I have been able to get some of them off ! I wonder how much dextrin in the NEPT mix? I just spent some time looking for a raw materials "casein" supplier, no luck except flavored, expensive nutritional supplements. making it yourself: If I calculated correctly for non fat dry milk 36% protein , and 80% of that is casein, with 100% extraction you would get 523 g of casein from 64oz dry milk, at wally world is $16. added at a rate of 100g to 150 grams of water = 784 g of adhesive. quite expensive, compared to other adhesives, Elmer's at a 70 / 30 ratio is 2600g at $17. a little less than 1/3 the price not counting the heating and separating. But then again, who cares, I don't launch that many rockets......
dagabu Posted September 17, 2014 Posted September 17, 2014 Who told you about the casein dag? Just out of curiosity would love to see where it is mentioned to further edumacate myself. Totally agree with the 'ejector method' there does is a technique for correct removal if doing it by hand. Not sure if PVA would be very good for sizing. Well it may work... But casein would be where I would be betting Here is another paper for the glue sniffers :http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/sectors/chemicals/files/docs_studies/annex_use_other_application_en.pdf There was talk of it about four years ago over on Passfire then again this past week over at Fireworking. There is a scent that both dex and milk glue have that was detected at the factory and when you soak the tubes in warm water to peel them apart. Try it, you will see (smell) what I mean.
Mumbles Posted September 17, 2014 Posted September 17, 2014 You can find unflavored casein powder if you look. It's about the same price in the long run from your extraction. http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/p/bodytech-100-casein-unflavored-2-lb-powder/vs-2258#.VBnTfWM2r0U This stuff is more expensive because it's food grade, and marketed to people who are willing to bear the cost. Ideally you'd be able to find the technical grade stuff. It's out there, but you might need to call around some. I found another product that might work. "american clay mud glue" It's $28/bag, but I have no clue how much a bag weighs. If it's 1lb, then that's ridiculous. If it's 5lbs, then it'd be more reasonable.
dagabu Posted September 17, 2014 Posted September 17, 2014 (edited) I bought a #10 box of casein powder from cracker a few years back, still in good shape. Red Devil Lye from DUDA is the best I have found so far. My dad made some fine glue with it, laminated a bow top to a cabinet with it. Edited September 17, 2014 by dagabu
schroedinger Posted September 17, 2014 Posted September 17, 2014 If you need casein, have a look at shops which supply carp fishers, there it gets often usedd for making boilies and is much cheaper (even if it is useless in them). Dag the method whith strengthing the paper by impregnating it with glue works really god. I tried one time to make my own gummed, didn't work out too well as i made a couple errors at that time, but then i used the paper for cylinder shell casings and those became hard like i never experienced before. The way i made the paper was by making up a quite thin dextrine glue and pasting it onto the paper, after pasting some of the paper (still attached to the roll) move it away in manner that it hangs free in the air, e.g. over a chair. The paper should feel nearly dry again after about 3-5 min. This way the paper dries fast and doesn't start to mush. Using a thin paste makes the glue to partially soak into the paper, but doesn't give layer on top like gummed tape has. Now for pasting apply normal paste. 1
dagabu Posted September 17, 2014 Posted September 17, 2014 If you need casein, have a look at shops which supply carp fishers, there it gets often usedd for making boilies and is much cheaper (even if it is useless in them). Dag the method whith strengthing the paper by impregnating it with glue works really god. I tried one time to make my own gummed, didn't work out too well as i made a couple errors at that time, but then i used the paper for cylinder shell casings and those became hard like i never experienced before. The way i made the paper was by making up a quite thin dextrine glue and pasting it onto the paper, after pasting some of the paper (still attached to the roll) move it away in manner that it hangs free in the air, e.g. over a chair.The paper should feel nearly dry again after about 3-5 min.This way the paper dries fast and doesn't start to mush. Using a thin paste makes the glue to partially soak into the paper, but doesn't give layer on top like gummed tape has. Now for pasting apply normal paste. PERFECT! That was exactly what I was talking about.
Maserface Posted September 17, 2014 Posted September 17, 2014 Im looking into a real source of the stuff- I have a few leads that ill track down after work.
pex Posted September 17, 2014 Posted September 17, 2014 Nice schroedinger,my second hobby is carp fiching ☺ i only think allot of People in the us don't know what boilies are. And they dont have allot carp anglers. I used caseine in the past for my boilies. Now i have a second use for the stuff. Thanks
mkn Posted September 17, 2014 Author Posted September 17, 2014 Im looking into a real source of the stuff- I have a few leads that ill track down after work.Hi Maserface, that would be great, must be something reasonably priced ....... Nice schroedinger,my second hobby is carp fiching ☺ i only think allot of People in the us don't know what boilies are. And they dont have allot carp anglers. I used caseine in the past for my boilies. Now i have a second use for the stuff. ThanksI did not know either, but now I do, also in OK, the carp fisherman are willing to pay more for casein then the bodybuilders ! Carp store was $45 for 2.2lbs plus shipping vs $45 for 4 pounds shipped in Mumbles link I bought a #10 box of casein powder from cracker a few years back, still in good shape. Red Devil Lye from DUDA is the best I have found so far. My dad made some fine glue with it, laminated a bow top to a cabinet with it. checked crackers site, none listedYou can find unflavored casein powder if you look. It's about the same price in the long run from your extraction. http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/p/bodytech-100-casein-unflavored-2-lb-powder/vs-2258#.VBnTfWM2r0U This stuff is more expensive because it's food grade, and marketed to people who are willing to bear the cost. Ideally you'd be able to find the technical grade stuff. It's out there, but you might need to call around some. I found another product that might work. "american clay mud glue" It's $28/bag, but I have no clue how much a bag weighs. If it's 1lb, then that's ridiculous. If it's 5lbs, then it'd be more reasonable. Found that its a 20 oz bag, + shipping Interesting basically the same ingredient, with pricing all over the place, depending on market type. Construction the most expensive ( for "green Building" ) Carp fisherman second highest, and bodybuilders least expensive. Hope Maserface finds something less than the food grade nutritional supplements I'll probably try some powdered milk conversion , and see if the results are significant. Its funny, My oldest did an experiment this past winter turning milk into a "plastic like substance" Casein I presume, too bad it was with the 2% milk....supposedly not as strong as fat free skim powder.
jessoman Posted September 18, 2014 Posted September 18, 2014 (edited) I would absolutely give the no fat powder a go, I just found out the local health food shop has it cheap. Also, on another note. The extras you put in the casein glue make it much more economical.I just got some borax Here's a vid of one of my tubes. Got it to just over 12,000 psi.http://youtu.be/eQxtxXqsh7gIt didn't pop either I just didn't have enough room left on the gauge to keep going Edited September 18, 2014 by jessoman
schroedinger Posted September 18, 2014 Posted September 18, 2014 Jessoman, your are oz right? Then go over to woli and have a look for theyr dry milk powder, they have low fat milk powder .1%, if i remember right it was called skim milk powder. It is packed in white/red bag and disgusting but half a kg. was about 2 bucks.
jessoman Posted September 18, 2014 Posted September 18, 2014 Yeah mate. Haha sweet. Is the woolies one 100% casein? Wish I didn't go to this trouble making the curds now I have the powders.
mkn Posted September 18, 2014 Author Posted September 18, 2014 WOW ! Jessoman, 12K on the tube unsupported ......looks like a 3/4 " or 19mm tube? That would be nice not to set up the tube support each time. was the tube made with the borax / casein mix. Virgin Kraft? Wall looks like 1/8 or 3mm That is amazing, you don't have to use tube supports. Matt
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