DavidF Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 P.S. I did not mention waxing the tubes as an encouragement to do so. I mentioned it to indicate that the .010-.015" difference between the drift diameter and tube wall ID allowed for waxing of the tube- if desired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackthumb Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Have a line on great, high quality tubes. These are convolute wound, trimmed and machine cut using virgin high burst natural kraft. Don't think you'll find better since NEPT is down. Working on pricing now. Don't know what NEPT's were selling for but these will be available soon and I will price them as close as I can....need to cover shipping etc. since these are heavy tubes......see photo for example of a 5/8 tube. Have several thousand of 5/8 x 3" as pictured already in stock.PM with questions... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSO Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 What sizes and lengths are you looking to carry? I'd be very interested in the 3/4" 1lb tubes, either cut or full length tubes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted October 17, 2014 Author Share Posted October 17, 2014 I just made five benzoate whistle rockets from tubes that blackthumb gave to me last weekend. The tubes appear to be made exactly like NEPT tubes. I will fire those rockets on November 1st and will take video for you all to see. They are resin hexamine bound benzoate whistle fuels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackthumb Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 I have fired and recovered one of those tubes 5 times before the ID became too large for my tooling...after that, they become salute headers. They are awesome whistlers.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackthumb Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Right now the sizes being considered are :.510 ID x 7.5", .125 wall, and in 30" lengths.750 ID x 7.5" .125 wall, and 30" lengths1.005" ID x 30", .165 walland 5/8" ID x 3", 6" and 30" with .125 wall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackthumb Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Working out pricing, min run, shipping and delivery time....bit pricey for small runs but well worth it in quality. Will notify this forum when they are added to my website... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted October 17, 2014 Author Share Posted October 17, 2014 If they come in at the price we discussed, count me in for a whole bunch, BT! You can bring them down to Gillette with you when you come to PGI next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Blackthumb, if you're on Fireworking, there was a looooooooong discussion about the proper ID's for rocket tubes. I believe the consensus was to go slightly larger than nominal sizes to account for some tooling clearance, and allow for waxing tubes. .75" tubes were really .765 or something to that effect. If you can bring these to market at a competitive price, I think you'll enjoy great success. The other product being brought to market is spiral wound, and just based on hearsay and preconceived biases, I think you'll get a lot of business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackthumb Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 (edited) Having never purchased high quality tubes before, I am trying to research the possible market...these are not the ordinary tubes....I also have been testing some great spiral tubes...I know they are perceived to be lesser in performance...but, they perform well for me with hand tamped fuels. I don't use a high pressure press as I never seemed to need one. The larger ID is probably what I will end up with....am inviting input on sizes and acceptable prices for my friends here on the forum....any and all responses are welcomed! Edited October 17, 2014 by Blackthumb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackthumb Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 I see Skylighter is offering a NEPT 3/4, 1/8 x 30" at almost $7 each...$66.95/10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted October 17, 2014 Author Share Posted October 17, 2014 That's an inflated price due to demand. The normal price was inflated too by nearly 250%. Your tubes are very nice, I see no performance differences from yours to to the NEPT tubes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maserface Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 It would probably make sense to match same OD as NEPT as well. My 3# Nept tubes are right on the money 1.375" OD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobosan Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 I believe the final ID agreed upon on fireworking.com for 1# tubes was 0.760 +- 0.005. It was hard to keep track of all the input and a majority of the problems seemed centered on tooling from Steve LaDuke. I'm also interested in what you may get in stock, Blackthumb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 Someone should be able to go through the thread and get you the details if you'd like, and you're not on Fireworking yourself. I believe there was some debate over the tolerances too. I think the ideal scenario was 0.765 +.005, -.000 Steve LaDuke's tooling is very good, but also very particular. There is a small flare near the pressing end that causes problems with undersized or apparently standard 0.750 sized tubes. There is a very tight tolerance on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidF Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 Yes there was much debate on FW and I was the rabble-rouser at the centre of it. Dagabu and Ben Smith both wanted to have Phil's tubes made to dimensions and tolerances that I felt were wrong. Still do. I own mostly LaDuke tooling, which is indeed flared at the end. All my tooling will have to be modified. I have accepted that and moved on. But, the tolerances and dimensions suggested imploringly by Dagabu were completely out to lunch, even with (normal) tooling like his and Ben Smith's. I objected vehemently, first to the exclusion of SLD's tooling from consideration, and then to dimensions that IN MY OPINION were guaranteed to provide unsatisfactory results, even with regular tooling. I also objected to the fact that the ridiculously tight fit of Phil's original ID tubes (the ones Dagabu would like) was being glossed over for some reason. I objected to the fact that no ID complaint had ever been made about NEPT tubes, but it was made to seem like there had. I will be honest- I objected to a lot of things, and quite vociferously. In the end, common sense was able to prevail, and Phil now has tubes available that will fit Dave's and Ben's tooling- but not at the dimensions they championed. You will be able to wax your tubes if you like, and will not have to fight with the drift for every increment. I have tested and proven everything I say. I have tested Phil's old (.755 ID) tubes in several configurations with the .740" tooling he sent me. I also have his 3# tubes. Now I have his newer .765" ID +.005"-.000 in my possession, and they are a comfortable fit with .750" diameter tooling. My opinions are all based on experience with all the types and makers of tooling and tubes that were the subject of the debate. I don't know what factual basis other opinions were based on. I mean no disrespect to anyone. I simply argued unceasingly until (in my opinion) a huge mistake was avoided. Dave and Ben might have a different perspective on it, and that's fine. Don't get all caught up in the SLD aspect of it y'all. Here is a short clip that shows the fit NOBODY had a STATED problem with, until I picked and picked away at the issue. Sorry all for being a dick about it. I feel I did the right thing.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjzW8izd3BQ&list=UUqu8DxSdN4KWh73BVQ7EKjg Before any of you buy any tubes from anybody, make sure THEY have made sure the fit is good for standard tooling. Phil has- now, and he will sell plenty of tubes to happy customers because of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted October 18, 2014 Author Share Posted October 18, 2014 Yes there was much debate on FW and I was the rabble-rouser at the centre of it. Dagabu and Ben Smith both wanted to have Phil's tubes made to dimensions and tolerances that I felt were wrong. Still do. I own mostly LaDuke tooling, which is indeed flared at the end. All my tooling will have to be modified. I have accepted that and moved on. But, the tolerances and dimensions suggested imploringly by Dagabu were completely out to lunch, even with (normal) tooling like his and Ben Smith's. I objected vehemently, first to the exclusion of SLD's tooling from consideration, and then to dimensions that IN MY OPINION were guaranteed to provide unsatisfactory results, even with regular tooling. I also objected to the fact that the ridiculously tight fit of Phil's original ID tubes (the ones Dagabu would like) was being glossed over for some reason. I objected to the fact that no ID complaint had ever been made about NEPT tubes, but it was made to seem like there had. I will be honest- I objected to a lot of things, and quite vociferously. In the end, common sense was able to prevail, and Phil now has tubes available that will fit Dave's and Ben's tooling- but not at the dimensions they championed. You will be able to wax your tubes if you like, and will not have to fight with the drift for every increment. I have tested and proven everything I say. I have tested Phil's old (.755 ID) tubes in several configurations with the .740" tooling he sent me. I also have his 3# tubes. Now I have his newer .765" ID +.005"-.000 in my possession, and they are a comfortable fit with .750" diameter tooling. My opinions are all based on experience with all the types and makers of tooling and tubes that were the subject of the debate. I don't know what factual basis other opinions were based on. I mean no disrespect to anyone. I simply argued unceasingly until (in my opinion) a huge mistake was avoided. Dave and Ben might have a different perspective on it, and that's fine. Don't get all caught up in the SLD aspect of it y'all. Here is a short clip that shows the fit NOBODY had a STATED problem with, until I picked and picked away at the issue. Sorry all for being a dick about it. I feel I did the right thing.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjzW8izd3BQ&list=UUqu8DxSdN4KWh73BVQ7EKjg Before any of you buy any tubes from anybody, make sure THEY have made sure the fit is good for standard tooling. Phil has- now, and he will sell plenty of tubes to happy customers because of it. Dave is 100% correct in every way except for the entire treatise above as my part was taken out of context, not accurately quoted etc. The hard facts, beyond opinion are this: Makers of whistle rockets have been for years and years, having trouble with comp by-pass making for very tight rammers. Along came Steve LaDuke who peaned the end of his rammers to "tighten" up the rammer to tube gap. Problem solved? Not really, even though a LOT of NEPT tubes are used every year (not now though) they only represent a small fraction of actual tubes being used for pyro. Without "suggest(ing) imploringly" that we make sure to keep the tubes tight enough to use stock 0.75" aluminum and brass, it is my opinion that the ID not be as big as the NEPT tubes were. As I have stated elsewhere and to many in PM's and emails these past weeks, make the tubes any size you all want, as long as they are made to the quality that the NEPT tubes were made using similar materials for a fair price point, I'm in. make them sloppy to fit SLD tooling and I'm out. Congrats for the tirade Dave, I didn't care then and I dont care now about the debate, I just wanted to make sure people were aware of the facts before the ID's became ridiculously large. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidF Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 I don't have an issue with comp bypass on whistle rockets. I have made them in NEPT tubes in 1/2, 5/8, 3/4, and 1" sizes. Most were with SLD's universal tooling. The 3# ones were made with SLD tooling and with Wolters strobe tooling. Both worked equally well. I was confident enough in the 3# strobe rockets made with Wolters tooling in the "sloppy" NEPT tubes that I fired them 10 at once, and they all worked fine. I do not use Vaseline in my whistle fuels because I feel it causes comp bypass. I use wax. Comp bypass is encouraged by high pressing forces and overly large increments. The first drift on a cored rocket motor delivers far more force than a flat drift would. That's the one most guys get stuck IMHO. Then with a few tweaks in the technique, the problem goes away. One man's opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrB Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 Is there anything like a common ground here? X much larger then the rammer size for tubes? Quite frankly i'm asking since i have no idea. And this sort of stuff really helps when making new gear to roll your own tubes on, and not only when trying to find a commercial sweet spot.B! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted October 18, 2014 Author Share Posted October 18, 2014 Yes, there is but Dave likes to keep impacting the equine... http://awesomegifs.com/wp-content/uploads/dead-horse.gif 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 If you roll your own tubes you`ll have to experiment with the mandrel diameter as the glue and other factors affect the shrinkage rate. Personally i like 19.15 -19.2 (0.754"- 0.756") id tubes for 19.05mm tooling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddewees Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Yes there was much debate on FW and I was the rabble-rouser at the centre of it. Dagabu and Ben Smith both wanted to have Phil's tubes made to dimensions and tolerances that I felt were wrong. Still do. I own mostly LaDuke tooling, which is indeed flared at the end. All my tooling will have to be modified. I have accepted that and moved on. But, the tolerances and dimensions suggested imploringly by Dagabu were completely out to lunch, even with (normal) tooling like his and Ben Smith's. I objected vehemently, first to the exclusion of SLD's tooling from consideration, and then to dimensions that IN MY OPINION were guaranteed to provide unsatisfactory results, even with regular tooling. I also objected to the fact that the ridiculously tight fit of Phil's original ID tubes (the ones Dagabu would like) was being glossed over for some reason. I objected to the fact that no ID complaint had ever been made about NEPT tubes, but it was made to seem like there had. I will be honest- I objected to a lot of things, and quite vociferously. In the end, common sense was able to prevail, and Phil now has tubes available that will fit Dave's and Ben's tooling- but not at the dimensions they championed. You will be able to wax your tubes if you like, and will not have to fight with the drift for every increment. I have tested and proven everything I say. I have tested Phil's old (.755 ID) tubes in several configurations with the .740" tooling he sent me. I also have his 3# tubes. Now I have his newer .765" ID +.005"-.000 in my possession, and they are a comfortable fit with .750" diameter tooling. My opinions are all based on experience with all the types and makers of tooling and tubes that were the subject of the debate. I don't know what factual basis other opinions were based on. I mean no disrespect to anyone. I simply argued unceasingly until (in my opinion) a huge mistake was avoided. Dave and Ben might have a different perspective on it, and that's fine. Don't get all caught up in the SLD aspect of it y'all. Here is a short clip that shows the fit NOBODY had a STATED problem with, until I picked and picked away at the issue. Sorry all for being a dick about it. I feel I did the right thing.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjzW8izd3BQ&list=UUqu8DxSdN4KWh73BVQ7EKjg Before any of you buy any tubes from anybody, make sure THEY have made sure the fit is good for standard tooling. Phil has- now, and he will sell plenty of tubes to happy customers because of it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PyroTekRob Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Is there anything like a common ground here? X much larger then the rammer size for tubes? Quite frankly i'm asking since i have no idea. I second this. As a builder of 1# and 4# BP rockets, and planning on SLD Hybrid tooling (for whistle assist, whistle, and strobe) also in 1# & 4#. My manufacturing event is coming up in a few months. I need to purchase more tubes. 4# seems to be the hardest to find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddewees Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 FYI... http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o588/SaltLakeAreaPyros/12-9-201410-39-27AM_zpsd35faf92.png 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts